Meet Susan Littenberg! Susan is an accomplished editor who lives in Los Angeles. She’s been an editor on over 15 feature films including, Charlotte’s Web, Bride Wars, Easy A, 13 Going On 30, and And Everything Is Going Fine, directed by Steven Soderbergh. Susan was nominated for an ACE award for Easy A and she also edited the music doc The Ballad Of Ramblin’ Jack which won a grand jury prize at Sundance among many other awards. Early in Susan’s career, when she was still an Assistant Editor she got to work with directors, Jim Jarmusch, Hal Hartley, Ang Lee, and Paul Auster. Most recently, Susan was a Producer on the award-winning documentary Bathtubs Over Broadway, which examines the quirky world of the corporate musical. Susan currently teaches at UCLA, which is where I met her, at a screening she was moderating that the Bruin Film Society sponsored a film she worked on as the Assistant Editor – The Ice Storm. I was thrilled when I made a point to meet Susan after the screening and asked if she’d share her journey and wisdom on Blissful Spinster and she said “yes!”. We had a wonderful chat full of amazing insights into the craft of filmmaking and storytelling and I’m so happy to be able to share this conversation with you.
Susan Littenberg - Editor
[00:00:00] Cris: Hi, and welcome to Blissful Spinster. This week's guest is editor Susan Littenberg Susan lives in Los Angeles, and she's been an editor on over 15 feature films, including Charlotte's web bride wars Eza. And my favorite 13 going on 30 Susan was nominated for an ACE award for Eza and she also edited the music doc, the ballot of rambling Jack that won the grand jury prize at Sundance among many other awards early in Susan's career.
[00:00:24] When she was still an assistant editor, she got to work with directors such as Jim mish, Hal Hartley ley, and Paul Oster. Imagine that most recently, Susan was a producer on the award-winning documentary bathtubs over Broadway, that examines the quirky world of the corporate musical. And I'm so looking forward to checking that out, cuz it's probably really funny.
[00:00:43] Susan currently teaches at UCLA, which is where I met her at a screening. She was moderating that the Bruin film society sponsored of a film. She worked on as an assistant editor, the ice storm. And it's pretty amazing film. If you haven't seen it, you should go check it out. I was thrilled when I made a point to meet Susan after the screening and [00:01:00] asked if she'd share her journey and wisdom on blissful spinster.
[00:01:02] And she said, yes, we had a wonderful chat full of amazing insights into the craft of filmmaking and storytelling. And I am so happy to be able to share this conversation with you. So however you found this podcast, thank you for tuning in and please enjoy this week's episode. Hi Susan. How you doing? I'm doing
[00:01:19] Susan: great.
[00:01:19] How are you,
[00:01:19] Cris: Chris? I'm good. I'm so happy. You agreed to do my podcast.
[00:01:24] Susan: I'm happy too. This is the first time I've I've done a podcast, actually. Really? I was
[00:01:29] Cris: excited to meet you that night, that we, that I went to the UCLA screening of ice storm. I was actually more excited to meet you than than the two zoomed in Ted hope.
[00:01:39] And, um, Tim Squires.
[00:01:41] Susan: Yeah.
[00:01:41] Cris: Tim Squires. Yeah. Cause I looked you up while we were, while you were talking, I'm like, oh goodness, she's an editor. And she did romcoms and my movie alone, girl's a romcom on a Ted. So I got excited.
[00:01:52] Susan: I'm so honored. That really means a lot to me because first of all, as just being a woman makes me feel like, uh, and, and not [00:02:00] quite as successful as Tim and Ted doesn't make me feel any less about myself, but I just assume people are more excited about meeting them.
[00:02:07] And so it means a lot to me that you were excited to meet me.
[00:02:11] Cris: Yeah, no, I was, that's the thing is I, I have a woman, a female editor attached to my project and I did that very much consciously. I think we have to make those conscious decisions because we haven't had as easy ode. Yeah. And what's funny to me about editing is it started out with women and then somehow we got put in the back lane again.
[00:02:33] Well, I
[00:02:34] Susan: can talk a little bit about what I know about that. Yeah, sure. If you want. Sure. I, even though I am a professor at UCLA and I teach film editing history, it's not all on the top of my head necessarily because I'm first and foremost, an editor, you know, I was an editor for 30 years and I've been teaching for just a few.
[00:02:50] But from what I understand from the research, I've done about the history of film editing, the reason that women were so involved in film editing from the [00:03:00] beginning is that first they started as negative cutters and it was thought to be such a tedious type of work and that since women were good at sewing and that sort of thing, they were put to task to, to do the hand coloring and hand tinting on film frames, that was.
[00:03:14] Very early on, even before editing in silent films and then negative cutting, and then naturally they started to become editors. But I think once it became more obvious that it was a role that had some kind of status to it, I think more and more men, not only status, but creative control to a certain degree, I think more and more men became involved and pushed women out to some degree.
[00:03:40] Although there's always been strong female. And continue to be. Yeah. I don't know if you know about Margaret Booth and DD Allen and some of these great female editors that also were consultants to the studios and they had pretty big roles at the major studios overseeing the editing of lots of other films.
[00:03:59] So [00:04:00] yeah, it's, it's women have been involved.
[00:04:02] Cris: I don't know if I heard of those names, but I do know I can't remember their names, but I know Martin Scorsese has a very famous Thelma
[00:04:08] Susan: Schumacher is a very famous editor. She's more, more recent than them. Margaret. I believe it was Margaret Booth started out on silent films with DW Griffith.
[00:04:17] Wow. And then ended up having a very high position at one of the studios. I can't remember which one and overseeing a lot of films. So yeah, a lot of these women, there's another woman. I can't think of her name right now, um, who had a similar role to Margaret Booth early on and became an overseer of other people's films.
[00:04:34] I'll try to think of it before the end of the podcast.
[00:04:36] Cris: I love hearing that stuff. And then I also wonder what their life must have been life. Like going up the ranks within the environment they were in. I mean, Margaret
[00:04:45] Susan: Booth was a badass from what it sounds like to me, you know? So she had men working under her in some ways.
[00:04:52] And then there's also the filmmaker, Lois Weber, who was a director. And she noticed the change even for female directors, because it also was [00:05:00] more prevalent that women were directing in early film and a people like Alice GI Blache, I don't know if you've heard of her. Um, she made thousands or she oversaw, she had her own studio called soak that mm-hmm she was from France, but she came to New Jersey and had a studio, but yeah, she had lots of films that she oversaw at least a thousand and directed hundreds.
[00:05:20] But then at some point, yeah, like Lois Weber is quoted as noticing when everything shifted and women were being pushed to the back a little more. I think
[00:05:28] Cris: probably when men realized there was some money to be made or it was CR whatever, I personally want equity and for everyone to have an equal playing ground, I don't think there's a.
[00:05:39] Let's push men completely out or anything. I just think there's other voices that should be heard. Yeah. Amongst those other ones. And I also think we've been learning, especially women and men as well. They're just as victim to this, that the, because the patriarchy has been in charge of how storytelling is told.
[00:05:57] They've been learning about women for mother [00:06:00] cisgendered white, old men. for hundreds of years. There's yes. There's been female authors throughout the years. Yes. There's been female filmmakers, but they're in such small number that what we really get from movies or TV or ads or any of it is really a skewed viewpoint of what women think or want or feel like to me, I'm like, well, of course, men don't understand as you're learning about us from other
[00:06:24] Susan: men.
[00:06:25] Right. Or women that are following the same patterns of storytelling and cliches. Of course, that is all changing in many ways, right? Not just gender but race. And at least I do feel like there is a trend of that changing and an awareness that we're all having regarding the roles that we assume mm-hmm women to have, or
[00:06:47] Cris: minorities or anyone who doesn't fit into that binary box.
[00:06:52] I think we're coming into an age where we get to see, we're getting to see those voices come to the forefront. And I think that's really [00:07:00] beautiful. I do too. So now that we've gotten into some really deep stuff, how did you start? What did, what made you want to be in film and then beyond that to edit?
[00:07:09] Susan: Yeah, I always loved movies when I was young. Um, I, you know, it's funny cuz I watched a ton of TV growing up and I don't let my kid watch as much TV as I did growing up, but I definitely had an influence on me and I really begged for HBO as soon as it existed and all through middle school and high school, I watched a lot of movies and I watched them multiple times and they had a big influence on me.
[00:07:33] And when I went to college at university of Delaware, I always had it in my mind that I wanted to be a filmmaker in. Way, but I, they didn't have a film major. So I ended up making my own major there, which I found out was an option. through a program called the Dean scholar through the English department.
[00:07:51] So I ended up convincing some professors to be my advisors, and I convinced the Dean that, that I could make my own [00:08:00] major. And then I got to take whatever classes I wanted. And there were film classes in different disciplines. So there were film classes in the English department, which I took as many as I could.
[00:08:09] There was intro to film. There was film genre, there was feminist film theory, world cinema. So I took as many of those classes as I could and became a TA for the intro to film class. And then I remember in the honors department, there was a philosophy class. I forget what it was called, but that was comparing films to novels.
[00:08:28] Cool. And yeah, and then there was a philosophy in film. Where we watched movies and talked about the philosophies behind them. So any class that had the word film in it, I took it and I also studied theater from when I was in high school. I had a fantastic theater teacher, Mr. Reiner at ocean township high school in New Jersey.
[00:08:49] And he really was the best directing teacher I've had, even though I, I took a lot of theater classes in college. And I shouldn't say that Mr. Rener was my favorite because David [00:09:00] Payne Carter was really my favorite directing teacher. He passed away from aids way back when, and it was a real big loss for me, cuz we were close, but I took a lot of acting classes, directing classes.
[00:09:09] I never expected to be an actress, but I had a real interest in directing from high school. And I actually won a little best director award in a one act play festival in high school, which looks like a little Oscar plastic, Oscar . But I was very inspired by theater for sure. But I always felt like film was more where my sensibilities.
[00:09:28] Li lay. And so when I went to college, I took a lot of theater classes, as many film classes as I could take. And I took photography classes as well and philosophy, which is just that's my interest, psychology and philosophy. And I think all of that applies to film making. And then in particular editing, which I didn't realize I was interested in until one of the classes I took, I think it was the world cinema class went deep into the Soviet, you know, the Russian film theories mm-hmm and it was blowing my mind.
[00:09:57] This idea of my favorite theory [00:10:00] is the KHA effect, which I'll explain in case. Your listeners don't know. I don't know if you do, you know, the cool shop effect. Okay. I
[00:10:07] Cris: think I may have heard it 20 years ago, but I don't know. I studied theater. I have a master of fine arts and theater technology, so cool. I meaning the technical side and the design side.
[00:10:17] And so I felt as a writer that if I studied that stuff, it would make me a better writer because a script, whether it's a player or a screenplay is a, is it's a conversation you're having with the other artists. It's the way I see it. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know how I came to that. At 20 whatever, but I did
[00:10:35] Susan: well, I think we all have some innate wisdom.
[00:10:37] And I think that the wisdom that learning the other disciplines of a craft that has many disciplines involved is just smart way to think about it. And so the coolest off effect is just that you have close up of someone mm-hmm this guy Lev Kok came up with this theory and then proved it by taking a close up shot of a man looking at the camera.
[00:10:59] [00:11:00] And then intercutting a shot of say a bowl of soup. And then you cut back to a close up of a man the same exact shot, but then you cut to say a gun. The idea is that by juxtaposing these images together, The audience will infer that man is perhaps hungry. If you cut to the soup, or if he's looking at a gun that he's murderous.
[00:11:23] So it's the idea that by putting these two images next to each other, it changes the meaning of each of those images on their own. And that blew my mind. I thought that's what editing is. Wait, you can put shots next to each other and create new meanings. And I just thought that was a very cool concept.
[00:11:41] Yes,
[00:11:42] Cris: I have heard of that. And I think I had the same thought you did, cuz there's a, it, I think there was a documentary I watched that had that talked about that and showed like what he was up to. And I love that I have a short that I did. That's black and white, that it's about student loans. It is literally shot in kind of close ups of things [00:12:00] and the person ends up opening the envelope and it's paid.
[00:12:02] So the gun that he put out, he doesn't need to use Uhhuh. Oh, there you go. The pop you hear is actually a bottle of champagne. Like you think that the pop you hear he want and. And then the last shot is the bottle of champagne putting, put, being put on the table, cuz it's all just table and you never see his face.
[00:12:19] You just see the letter and stuff. And so I guess I was inherently doing that without knowing exactly. And I think music has the same effect with editing too. You put that same man close up of a man with a bowl of soup, with two different pieces of music or sound effects would also help inform what you're trying to do.
[00:12:38] Susan: Right. Exactly. Yeah. And so that, that piqued my interest in editing was this idea of how you can manipulate your audience through not only, uh, different shots put next to each other or the rhythm of. And how quickly you're cutting from one shot to the next, you know, you're pacing all these editing elements and techniques manipulate the [00:13:00] audience.
[00:13:00] But like you said, also the sound, which is so much of what editors do is also manipulate the sound. And I realize too, like that word manipulation may have a negative connotation, but it depends on what your intention is. And I also like to think of editing as curating an experience for the viewer, because from whatever your opening shot is, whatever your opening sound is, whatever character you decide to introduce first and whatever action you're introducing in whatever order that's what editing is.
[00:13:27] You're just curating this experience through the visuals and sound usually through a story, right? A narrative, but not necessarily if it's experimental or music video, you're still curating an experience. And so I always liked that idea of having this creative influence over. The experience of a viewer.
[00:13:46] That's
[00:13:46] Cris: so cool. because I, the work I normally, my day job is what I call it is I work in unscripted cuz I kind of ended up going up that route. Sure. But what I ended up doing was becoming a part of people's [00:14:00] lives as a producer and unscripted and watching ups and downs and then watching footage hours and hours of footage of people talking or, and as you know, as an editor, we don't speak very well.
[00:14:11] It informs how you write dialogue. Right. So I think it was a really good. Like the writer I am today much better than the writer I was back then because of the journey I've taken. One thing I love is the collaboration that you get when you are a writer director, and you bring in the editor, your eyes are so invaluable to what I've tried to create, you know?
[00:14:32] And can you talk about that relationship from your viewpoint as an editor? Yeah.
[00:14:36] Susan: With the directors I've worked with, it depends on the relationship I have with the director, how free I'll be with my criticism, from the get go. Most of the directors, I have worked with want criticism from the get go. And that's why we got along so well, because I'm not one to, to sugarcoat things very much.
[00:14:53] If I don't like something, I make it known. And it's easier to work with a director who [00:15:00] did not also write the script. Honestly, because, or a first time, director's always tricky too, because everything can be very precious. They may have spent years writing the script and then the shoot, they, this is true for every director, whether they wrote the script or not, they're often disappointed at the end of the shoot because they had everything in their mind for so long of what they were gonna get.
[00:15:20] And then when they actually get is maybe not quite what they hope for, it's just different and it's hard for them to come to terms with that. So when they first come to the editing room, it can be very tricky for them to look at a first cut, but usually within. Within the first couple weeks, especially with people I've worked with before, we're already moving scenes around and taking scenes out and changing dialogue.
[00:15:42] And that is much easier with people who didn't write the dialogue themselves , but they're usually more open to just changing things a lot. And I do find that's where a lot of the good work comes out of is when you do experiment and change things from how they were originally scripted. But if something's working, you also wanna be the person [00:16:00] that doesn't wanna touch.
[00:16:00] What's not messed up. What's a balance of honoring what's there and trying to shape something into what it was meant to be that maybe didn't happen. But some directors are much more open to crazy ideas. And I like working with those kind of people better. Some are a little more precious about what they've got and don't wanna hear any new ideas.
[00:16:23] And I don't work with those people very well.
[00:16:27] Cris: that's funny that you say I am, I am a firm believer that. Directors should learn how to edit and to edit one of their own at the very least just one thing they've done. Yeah. So they can learn about that part of the process. And whether, because you do have to know that babies are gonna be killed things that look like they were in the right order on the page may not feel the right order.
[00:16:51] In the edit and a friend of mine. And I like to say a story's told three times it's what was written. It's what you captured when you [00:17:00] were on set, whether it's the actor's performance or that whatever that dynamic is. And then there's what ends up on screen, what you make in the edit. Yeah. And you have to be open to all of those.
[00:17:10] Those are all creative processes. Those are all chances to elevate what you came
[00:17:14] Susan: up with. Yep, exactly. I agree with that a hundred percent.
[00:17:18] Cris: I'm astounded when I'll come in for some doc thing that we're working on and an editor will be like, what about this? Because they're working off some bite that we got in the field and they put together the recreator.
[00:17:29] I just, I love being
[00:17:30] Susan: surprised documentary. Editing's a whole different beast. And I think it's, it's more creative in some ways than editing fiction. Mm-hmm because you're making the story in the editing room and. And unscripted, it might be a little different, like if it's for a TV show, but for a documentary feature, it feels like there's less of a formula that you have to stick to.
[00:17:49] And you're trying to find your formula and trying to find your, not only your story, but your storytelling style mm-hmm and it can be it just incredibly creative. And a lot of times [00:18:00] more and more, I think editors are getting a writing credit on documentary films and they
[00:18:05] Cris: should, yep. Editors are like the story producers that are working with the editors though.
[00:18:09] They're both writers in this instance that you're writing with the footage. There wasn't a script. Initially, there was a, maybe there was a breakdown and what you pitched that you hoped you would get, but you are bound by what the, what archival and what interview and if there's recre or animation or whatever, you've come up with all of those things, bind how the story is told.
[00:18:32] And that's where I've learned through the years. Just how important my relationship with an editor is. You've had a good balance of both from what I looked. You did the Spalding gray stuff. Yeah. I'm a huge fan just of his writing having come up in theater and stuff. So yeah. I was like, oh my goodness. Ang Lee, by the way, went to university of Illinois.
[00:18:54] Oh, I didn't
[00:18:55] Susan: know that. Yeah.
[00:18:56] Cris: So he got his degree in theater at the university of Illinois, [00:19:00] I think in the eighties, someone point. And I went there 93 to 96. I got my master's there. So I used to hear about him. And I think when I went to the ice storm, cuz I never, I'd never seen it by the way. Oh wow. That was my first time seeing him.
[00:19:15] And it was quite like, I was like, oh, this is
[00:19:17] Susan: amazing. It's amazing. That film is amazing.
[00:19:20] Cris: Yeah. And, but I remember hearing about it, cuz I think one of our prof, a couple of our professors were still like, he was still in touch with. And I think, I remember hearing that he was shooting something in, in the edit or something, cuz I graduated in 96.
[00:19:32] So that would've been around that time. And I just, I came out here and I just didn't have time as a PA nor money to be going to everything. But I was amazed and I just, I loved going to that screening to like see what he'd been up. Early because I was pretty early in his career. Like I think he'd only done.
[00:19:49] Susan: Yeah. So just to tell the people that are listening. So I was an assistant editor for a lot of years. I didn't really let me go back and talk about how I got into editing. Cuz I talked about my interest. Oh yeah, sure. That's [00:20:00] awesome. Yeah. Sorry. And then we'll, we'll come back. We'll come. We'll come up to the ice storm from there.
[00:20:04] So I, I graduated college. I waitressed for a little while and I finally got a job as, as a PA on a low budget film called the boy who cried bitch , which was actually a, a funny title, but not a bad film by Juan Jose Campanella. Who's an Argentinian filmmaker and working in New York city. And Adrian Brody was a boy in that film.
[00:20:25] I think Elijah wood was also in that film. As a matter of fact, I have to look back, I know Adrian Brody was anyway. So I was a PA on that. And pretty soon after I became an apprentice editor on a movie called night on earth in 1990, which was directed by Jim Jarm. So I was very lucky because I also didn't go to film school per se.
[00:20:45] I made my own major, like I explained, and I was very lucky to work with Jim mish very early on in the editing room. And I remember the producer I was working for before that telling me Jim stark was his name. And I was just filing things for him and taking his LA to the [00:21:00]laundromat. I, it was just like a very menial job that I got after the boy who cry bitch, because the lead actress, Karen Young said, what are you doing after this?
[00:21:07] You're smart. And I said, I think I'm going back to waitress, Inc. She said, no, you're not. And introduced me to Jim stark, who I ended up working for. Meaningly. And then he said, what do you wanna do? I said, I think editing, cuz I had been thinking about those classes in college that I loved so well or maybe the art department.
[00:21:23] I wasn't sure, but he introduced me to Jay re Benowitz who is gonna be editing Jim jar's next film night on earth, which Jim stark, the producer I was working for was. Producing. So that's how I got to meet Jay Rabinowitz and got that job. And I learned how to sync dailies on film. It was all on film from beginning to end.
[00:21:41] So on that film, I worked in pre-production for Jim filing things and seeing the early paperwork and that and schedules and stuff. Then I ended up working in the editing room, which starts before you start shooting, like right before preparing and getting ready and trying to keep up with the shoot and editing as they shop.
[00:21:58] And then we finished the [00:22:00] film. It took almost a year in the editing room, the sound mix, all of that I got to be witness to. And then the production office that Jim worked, you know, the people that worked for Jim asked me what I was doing after that. And if I would come work for them. So I ended up working for Jim's office after the film ended and I helped them get ready for the New York film festival and get their press packets ready.
[00:22:22] I helped with there was interviews. I would bring Jim packets of things when he had an interview at the shark bar in, in New York. And so I got to know Jim. Jim Jarm is pretty well. And the people that work for him and I just was pinching myself having this experience that was really over a year because I saw pre-production the whole edit, the whole sound mix.
[00:22:41] And then everything that happened after that, in regards to that film. And from there, I ended up working with ley and how Hartley, and, and then after that, Steven Soderberg. So as an assistant editor, I worked with incredible filmmakers in the nineties. And so the ice storm was the second film I had worked with Tim [00:23:00] Squires on really the third, because I helped.
[00:23:02] Sync dailies on a movie called the wedding banquet, which was an annually film that happened before sense and sensibility, which I also was the first assistant editor on. Yeah. And then the ice storm, I was first assistant editor on and on that we were editing on avid, but still, still cutting film to screen with.
[00:23:19] So I had a team working with and under me to get all the film ready. Every time we screened to keep up with the cut they were doing in the computer, on the avid. Wow. So we had to it's called conforming the work print. So we still had to rewind and splice film together and. Make the cut, exactly whatever we were seeing in the avid and then screening on film.
[00:23:40] So I did that for a few years and became an expert at those film conforms, which helped me get my job with Steven Soderberg in 1994, when I worked on the underneath. And that was the first time I joined the union and then went on location in Austin and worked with Steven Soderberg. So that was just, again, I was pinching myself because I was a huge sex lies, videotape fan mm-hmm
[00:23:59] [00:24:00] And I couldn't believe I was working with Steven Soderberg. I still can't it's I worked with him several times. I worked with him on the underneath and then Spalding gray Grey's anatomy, which not the TV show, but yeah, monologue that Spalding gray did. And I got to meet Spalding gray and work with him.
[00:24:15] Amazing. And then we did, I've worked on several obscure films with Steven Soderberg, none of the big hits, which is fine with me.
[00:24:22] Cris: Well, no, but you're still getting to, I would think that experience is really cool cuz they're those are probably the. Project they're their passion projects that they're working on.
[00:24:32] I'll be
[00:24:32] Susan: honest. The underneath was Steven's least favorite film he made of his own. Oh, okay. He hates that film from what I understand, but no, but it is true. Some of these other films were definitely his passion projects, like working with balding gray, doing a film called SCOs, which I did just a tiny bit of work on.
[00:24:49] But yeah, these are full frontal was a strange one, again, not the TV show, but of an obscure passion project for him as well. So that's true. So Laris I worked on and then, and everything is going [00:25:00] fine, which was a posthumous monologue. We created out of Spalding, grays, all different material we had on Spalding gray.
[00:25:06] I just wanna mention too. I hear in my voice a little bit groggy because I'm just getting over COVID so I'm just putting that out there for okay. Listeners that? I don't usually sound this groggy. I
[00:25:17] Cris: also just got over COVID so we're COVID COVID mates.
[00:25:21] Susan: there's so many of us right now.
[00:25:23] Cris: Yeah. So it, I wanna tell you.
[00:25:26] An interesting thing, because you've mentioned a couple names that intersect with something that's in my life. I, so my first short film was called hashtag no filter and I co-wrote it. And co-directed with my friend, bill Pruitt, who went to Columbia for directing and writing, I believe for his masters.
[00:25:46] And he went to school with Ted hope, I think. Ah, so he knew Ted hope from the good machine days in the nineties. Yeah. So flash forward 20. 15 20 16. I think, I think it was 2015. I think it was a 2016 hand film [00:26:00] festival. So the film was submitting it and got it into the short film corner at can. Congrats.
[00:26:05] Thank you. And that was the first film festival I ever went to. And so I like went cuz you get tickets with that and stuff. And so bill joined and we're walking along the CRO set and we run into Ted hope and there there's little reunion. And then Ted goes, Hey, I can't use these tickets. Do you wanna use 'em?
[00:26:22] And they were to the midnight showing of the Iggy pop documentary that jars did cool. And there were the tickets everyone wanted. And so I wound up, we were like a couple rows away from mish and Iggy pop. Amazing. And I just thought it was funny. You're talking about all these names. That's hilarious that I have this little story, this microcosm.
[00:26:45] Yeah.
[00:26:45] Susan: That's exciting.
[00:26:46] Cris: Yeah, it was. And that it was such a great documentary Amish did on NII
[00:26:51] Susan: and I never saw it. I should really see that. Yeah. You figure it out. But we should also explain who Ted hope is. So Ted hope. Oh yeah. And James shame is created a [00:27:00]company in the nineties, early nineties called good machine and ley and Hal Hartley, the people I worked for both made their films under good machine, but Ted hope and James Shamus are still incredibly powerful, intelligent, incredible producers.
[00:27:13] And, and actually James is still a professor at Columbia and Ted, you saw speak at the ice storm screening cuz he was a producer on that. And God, what an intelligent speaker he is. I was so blown away about what he had to say. Yeah,
[00:27:25] Cris: he's amazing. And I follow him on, on Twitter. And so cuz he is always got something cool to say or he asks questions.
[00:27:31] Genders. Like, I think he's naturally a teacher and a learner. Yes. All at the same time. And that's really cool someday. I hope he'll talk to me on my podcast.
[00:27:42] Susan: perhaps,
[00:27:42] Cris: perhaps he will perhaps, um, people like Ted hope. I value a lot, cuz. They offer their knowledge and what they're learning as they go as well.
[00:27:52] That's true. So, yeah. So what did you learn from working with ley or Steven or Soderberg?
[00:27:59] Susan: Anyy? [00:28:00] Gosh, I learned so much from all those different people and the editors really that I worked for Tim Squires was the editor I worked for so many years and he does all of Ang Lee's films. He also cut Gosford park.
[00:28:11] So he taught me process the process of editing. And even though I, my process is a little different from his, he's been a guest for me at UCLA for so many of my classes over the last few years. And so I still feel like I'm learning from him, just hearing him talk about his process even now, but he really, he works so hard to look at all the angles and possibilities of a scene when he goes to cut a scene and he'll even make a sequence.
[00:28:37] All closeups the scene, all in closeups, even though he knows that will never be how the film will ultimately present. And then he'll do all the film, all the whole scene in just medium shots and then find the best moments from those cuts and make the best scene outta that. So I've just learned the process of how to first attack assembling a scene.
[00:28:58] I learned a lot from him, but also [00:29:00] notes. Like he would have me and the other assistant editors watch scenes and have discussions and give notes on what he was doing. And he would take, he, he would listen to those notes and change the cut based on ideas that we may have as assistants, just watching and giving feedback.
[00:29:16] So I learned a lot about how to watch something and understand what changes are. Based on the footage or sometimes just pacing, like, oh, I think you need to stay on the wide shot of that horse a little bit longer in sense and sensibility because the viewer needs a little more time to see what the horse is doing or whatever it is.
[00:29:33] That's real specific, but
[00:29:35] oh,
[00:29:35] Cris: no, but I love that cuz he's also open to notes. Like he knows what you're explaining to me is he knows that he's in a bubble when he is cutting this and he needs your like even his assistance voices to help guide. Yeah. Am I getting that
[00:29:50] Susan: kind of right? Or, oh, definitely. Yeah.
[00:29:52] We all need objective opinions when we're doing something that's so ultra focused as editing.
[00:29:57] Cris: So then you went on to edit [00:30:00] some movies that people might have heard of that's true. Like 13 going on. Th I've watched all of these in the last two days, by the way. oh, good. So Susan edited 13 going on 30, which is, uh, seminal and kind of darling of the romcom genre, bride wars, and Z a were the three I watched.
[00:30:18] What is that like? I mean, these are. Big did they, did, you know, they were, they were bigger projects when you got them. And how early were you in on them? I think a couple of them were directed by the same director,
[00:30:31] Susan: right? Yes. Yes. Gary Winick was the director of 13 going on 30 and bride wars and Charlotte's web, which, uh, you didn't mention, but yeah, so we did, and we did lipstick jungle together as well, the pilot, but we also made a film before that called tad pull, which was an early film for him.
[00:30:47] And he won best director at Sundance that year for tad pull. So I really recommend you watch tad pull because it's a fantastic film. And that one, we had no idea how big it was gonna be. It was just the huge [00:31:00] buzz at Sundance that year. And it was a very big deal that year. I think it was 2000 or 2001. I can't remember exactly, but so tad pulled, we didn't know how big that was gonna be.
[00:31:09] And it really changed Gary's career. It brought him to LA and it got him 13 going on 30 and he demanded that I come along with him. So it was a big deal for both of us. And that was super exciting. I got to work. A wonderful editing room with a great crew. Selma Schumacher was across the hall at one point working on it wasn't there will be blood.
[00:31:30] It was the one, not there will be blood, but it was Daniel Day Lewis. What's the Scorsese film that takes place in old New York. Oh, gangs of New York. It was gangs of New York. She, and she had us come in, look at the steam back with her or the chem, whatever she was working on. So that was thrilling. And that was a year of my life of just working on the most fun film to, to work on.
[00:31:50] I'm still friends with people that I met on that film. We just really bonded as a family working on 13, going on 30, but it's the first time I dealt with a big studio and the studio [00:32:00]notes and that sort of thing Charlotte's web was even bigger than that. That was a really big film with a huge budget. And we were in Australia for four months.
[00:32:08] There were two editors on that because I was not as experienced on VI with visual effects. And so Sabrina Pliska, who's an incredible editor. She's done Marvel films now, and she's just incredible with visual effect and her work ethic is beyond mine. I just couldn't believe the kind of hours and focus she could keep.
[00:32:25] She's incredible. So I learned so much from her, but again, a very different experience than working on a small indie film. And I learned that I don't like working with that many visual effects. It's too tedious for me. Some people it's great and it's their forte, but for me it was, it was too tedious for me.
[00:32:43] But bride wars was fun. Unfortunately, Gary was diagnosed with brain cancer during bride wars and he passed away a couple years after that, but it's the last film we did together. And so that's a sad one to think about. And you know, it, wasn't our favorite film as far as the quality. I mean, I think there's a lot of fun to it and we had fun on some of [00:33:00] those montages, but it's not our favorite film as far as quality of film, but it is the last one that Gary and I did together.
[00:33:06] And I had a lot to do with the end cuz he was really not feeling well. So I ended up basically running the sound mix and running the di, which is the, uh, color correct. Because usually the director does and he just couldn't see and hear well enough at that point. Yeah, that was, it was tough, but I was also so honored to be able to do that for
[00:33:23] Cris: Gary was how did that, did that project come to him?
[00:33:26] If it. a favorite, was it? I think he was
[00:33:29] Susan: excited about the job and it just, yeah, I don't know. It just seemed like a silly light thing to me, but he might say something different. Yeah. About it. I just, to me, it was just a little too silly
[00:33:39] Cris: in light. I was watching it again. And when it came out, there was some interesting editing stuff.
[00:33:43] I thought with the photograph using the photograph montages
[00:33:47] Susan: and stuff like that. Oh, I would love to talk about that. Yeah. Bride wars came out soon after the kid stays in the picture, which is a documentary I absolutely love. And people all started copying something that they originated, which is to take [00:34:00] still photographs.
[00:34:01] And rotoscope to have people cut parts of the photograph away from the rest so that they could get some of it to blow up and move and bring life to photographs. Sometimes they'd even add like smoke effects and things like that. And so the, these internal movements within the still images were so inspiring to me that I begged Gary to do it on Bri wars.
[00:34:21] And so we found someone who was a graphics guy, and we made a montage of stills. Like it's the wedding prep montages of going and picking out the flowers and that all that, that we decided to give it a shot of doing a similar effect on the photograph. So I'm glad that you noted that and brought that up because that was a fun homage for me towards the kid stays in the picture.
[00:34:43] Cris: I did note it and I was wondering what the Genesis of that was. Was it in the script or was it you, or was it the director? So it's, it was your idea. So that's awesome. That was me. Would that from the beginning. Cause you had, did he have, did those get shot before during the shoot or I
[00:34:58] Susan: don't remember. I think that there, I [00:35:00] think stills were part of the plan and that it was my idea to add the kid stays in the picture effect.
[00:35:04] Oh, okay. The opening title sequence, which has the little girls was conceived by a company, a title company. And I can't remember their name right now, which is terrible, but my friend, Karen Fong worked for that company and came up with a lot of those ideas. And in fact, I had just gotten married. So she asked to borrow my notebooks, that I used to plan my wedding and used them as inspiration for, oh, that's cool.
[00:35:29] Kind of this, this scrapbooks of the note of the, uh, the wedding notebooks and stuff there. So that was fun. But I thought she did a beautiful job at that opening sequence. Yeah. I think
[00:35:38] Cris: they all have a pretty interesting opening. Sequence like, yeah. The sky that then bleeds into the background of the school photo in 13, going on 30 was cool.
[00:35:48] Susan: Yeah. I've always liked that one thing you should know about the opening and ending of 13 going on 30, if you don't already know this is that we completely recast. The kids, both kids that play Matt and Jenna. [00:36:00] Oh really? And reshot the entire opening and we reshot the entire ending. And you can actually now see that on YouTube.
[00:36:07] Oh, people have posted the original opening and ending.
[00:36:10] Cris: I have to watch those. I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Wow. And
[00:36:13] Susan: so I actually was on set for a lot of the reshoots. The cool thing about reshooting, the opening of 13 going on 30 is that the original opening had some of the same elements, but because we had cut the rest of the film, we now had this opportunity to rewrite the opening and have there be a lot more flashbacks than were originally intended later in the film mm-hmm
[00:36:35] So we created these kind of retro retroactive flashbacks. For example, she works for poise magazine and in the original opening, she doesn't look through the magazine, but we decided, oh, this wasn't my idea. So I'm not gonna take credit for it. But we had her look at the magazine and there's insert shots of her looking through the magazine and saying, and there's an article.
[00:36:56] Says 30 flirty and thriving. And she [00:37:00] sees photographs of like her dream apartment, which were actually stills from the set of, of Jenna's apartment later that did not exist in the original opening. Wow. So she was looking at these photographs of a dream apartment, and then that becomes her apartment in the actual film.
[00:37:17] So things like that were really great to create. And so that opening sky turning into the, the school photo, that school photograph, I don't think that was not in the original. Either in fact, I don't think there was even a school photographer in the beginning. So you should go back and watch the original and see the difference because it's pretty, pretty clever all of the callbacks that we were able to create after the fact
[00:37:40] Cris: that's really, that's an important thing I think for listeners to learn is sometimes you do have to go back and do some reshooting or whatever to make, to elevate whatever it is you're working on or make it actually
[00:37:51] Susan: work.
[00:37:51] Oh, absolutely. You know, it's funny, I've done a few Q and a with the producers of 13, going on 30 at UCLA and other places, Donna Roth [00:38:00] and Susan Arnold, who are partners. And they have been for a long time, they also made gross point blank way back when, before they made T going on 30, they've made some cool films and they both kind of regret now.
[00:38:11] In some ways, not really regret. It's a better film with the opening and ending, but I think everyone felt really bad for those kids who were the original actors, especially the girl for me, I really liked her performance and thought it was really genuine, but somehow the studio and whoever else felt.
[00:38:28] That young Jenna should look and just be a little bit more like Jennifer Garner than she was. And so that poor other girl just got cut out of the film and I felt bad about
[00:38:37] Cris: that. Well, that girl, the one that actually, I can't remember her name right now, but she's on Instagram as an adult.
[00:38:43] Susan: Now I know. And she's posted stuff about 13 going on 30, right?
[00:38:46] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:47] Cris: And it's really see some of her little videos and stuff.
[00:38:50] Susan: Krista Christa, Christa something.
[00:38:52] Cris: Yeah. And then Bree Larson was one of the
[00:38:55] Susan: six that's right. She was one of the six chicks, Bree Larson
[00:38:58] Cris: when I rewatched it last night. Cause that one [00:39:00] I watched last night and there's this moment when Jennifer Gardner she's just woken up in that apartment.
[00:39:06] yep. And the make and man's in her apartment. I love that sequence but she hasn't discovered him yet. And she's sitting on a seat like her, the, I don't know if it was the chair or the Satee, but she stands up and it's her physicality like. She hasn't figured out her adult body yet. And I was just like, that is such a wonderful actor choice to watch.
[00:39:30] And I didn't know. Did she do that? Every take? Was that like, what was that like for you? Because she did such a nice job. I think of being 13 in a 30 year old body.
[00:39:39] Susan: Yeah. Good point. Yeah. I think all of her takes from what I remember were similar in that I do remember taking out a section of that sequence where she's at one end of the.
[00:39:51] and we cut something out and got her quicker to the other end of the room on that chair that you're talking about. So something got cut out in the middle. I can't remember what it was, but it's [00:40:00] such a minor thing, but it's just interesting to know, because I do remember that and things like that happen all the time, where you just take out a small beat and it just makes the scene go a little bit quicker and no one would ever know.
[00:40:11] So I do remember something like that happening in that sequence, but I, and I also agree that her physicality was fantastic. There's one thing that we reshot, I think when she first sees herself in the mirror and she pops her head up into the mirror, I'm trying to remember if we reshot that or not. Gosh, I wish Gary was around to remember cuz he's probably, would've a better memory than me.
[00:40:33] For some reason. I. Feel like we reshot something there. And I don't remember why just sometimes it's not a whole sequence. Sometimes it's just a shot that you feel like you didn't get something. Yeah. Or maybe it was to take away some time and get her to a moment quicker or something like that.
[00:40:48] Cris: Yeah. No, that's so interesting cuz it is, it's about pacing too.
[00:40:52] And it's yeah. You imagine in your head, the, the scene and you've got all of these little parts and then you like someone like you with [00:41:00] your, with the clear eye looks at it and goes, what if we cut this out? And all of a sudden it snaps into place. I think sometimes you're like, oh my goodness. That's exactly.
[00:41:08] Even though it's not what I. Imagined it's
[00:41:11] Susan: much better. Yeah. I love those moments in the editing room. Sometimes we would talk about the editing God's being with us and things would just happen and they would be better. And you wouldn't even know how your hands and brain made it happen. mm-hmm but that's when you're in the real creative flow is when you're just like at one with the tool, whether it's an avid or film, and you're just making the film come to life from.
[00:41:32] Back part of your brain that isn't overthinking it. It's just that creative process that I can miss, because I don't really edit anymore by choice by choice. Why? I think I I've sat at a computer in a dark room for too many years. I really do. And I just wanna be in real life a little more. Everyone can relate to that more since COVID and being on zoom.
[00:41:51] But my life has been like one long zoom in the sense that I've been inside a screen, manipulating things so [00:42:00] intensely for so many years. And I just wanted to get out of, and away from the screen. But I do really miss. That creative, super focused flow that you can get from editing. And maybe I'll go back to it here and there.
[00:42:14] My friend pulled me out of semi-retirement a few years ago, and I did a film called all about Nina with Mary Elizabeth, Winsted mm-hmm and common. And it's a great film, but EV Avivas directed that. And at first it was just help us get into Sundance for a few weeks. And then it turned into four months of me helping them finish the film.
[00:42:30] And it was great on some level, but it also reminded me of why I don't wanna sit there. I just it's too hard for me anymore. And that's why I love teaching I'm in real life. It was on zoom for a while, but it was still there's something that feels. More immediate connecting, you know, live with people, whether it's in person or not, that I just felt a little too isolated from that you are with a director in the room a lot, which ha is good and bad.
[00:42:54] I just felt like I needed to be with more people and connecting with people. And I [00:43:00] produced a documentary as well called bathtubs over Broadway. Oh, I dunno if you saw that, I
[00:43:04] Cris: saw it on your list. I haven't watched it,
[00:43:06] Susan: but yeah. Oh, bathtubs over Broadway is a fantastic film. My friend David wean, who I've worked with in the editing room, directed that film and edited it.
[00:43:15] And it's about corporate musicals. And this one guy, Steve young, who became obsessed with the records of these corporate musicals. And it's so beyond just being about discovering this music from corporate musicals, and it becomes like a really heartfelt journey of Steve young, who was a writer on the Letterman show and him connecting with people who were his heroes from these records that he collected.
[00:43:37] And it's such a beautiful. And hilarious film and people end up laughing and crying and it won a bunch of awards, but yeah, bathtubs over Broadway. I'm not just plugging it for myself and plugging it because it's an incredible experience to watch that film. And it's back on Netflix again, it was gone for a while and I, and it keeps coming up as a suggested film on my Netflix.
[00:43:59] So it's [00:44:00] still out there. I'm gonna
[00:44:01] Cris: watch this weekend then. Please do. I will. I totally will. I'm not just, that's not lip service. It's on my list. Okay. Cause I love Broadway anyway. So having studied things. Oh yeah. But have you thought of, cuz you mentioned it early on, have you thought of transitioning to direct cause some of the best directors started as editors and Scorsese.
[00:44:20] Let's
[00:44:20] Susan: talk about that first. Let's talk about how Ashby, who was an amazing editor and then became a director. And let's talk about Robert Wise, who edited citizen Kane and then went on to direct the sound of music and other incredible films. By the way, when I. Charlotte's web. We were in an old building at paramount, which used to be the old arch radio and film buildings.
[00:44:40] And so I cut, supposedly they told me that I was editing Charlotte's web in the room that Robert Wise cut citizen cane. So that was pretty exciting. And he died while we were cutting it. So I had his obituary up on the wall while we were cutting Charlotte's web. Oddly enough, when I was [00:45:00] editing, Eza a huge influence on will luck.
[00:45:03] The director of Eza was John Hughes mm-hmm and you can tell, well, we ended up, and this was my idea later. It was not scripted. We ended up putting excerpts of John Hughes films in the film, which was not scripted. And we were able to get the rights to them, but it actually works great to go ahead and cut directly to a scene from say anything or whatever the, yeah.
[00:45:24] And, but he died while we were working on Eza and we had his bit up, it was kind of a weird, oh my. But anyway, Yes, I have always wanted to direct I directed theater when I was in high school a little bit in college. I even directed some theater after college in New York. And then we just rented a, a theater and I got some friends to act and we did a Sam shepherd play called cowboy mouth where I incorporated some super eight film elements into the show and loved it.
[00:45:55] Ended there. And I directed, I shouldn't say that because I did direct a [00:46:00]documentary about a jazz festival called the vision festival in New York mm-hmm . And I documented the second annual, which was in 19 7 97. So I made that documentary and I made a short diary film, which was, I didn't even intend to make this film.
[00:46:13] I was just having a hard time traveled by myself to Mexico and ended up making a short diary film out of it, but it went to the Barcelona alternative film festival the next year. And so I have this seven minute film called sun broke, which I'm super proud of, which is just about my own trip and my own internal, emotional journey that I was going through.
[00:46:32] And I've meant to do something else ever since. That was like 2002 and I just haven't. Wow. I just haven't. But I am writing a script that I've been thinking about and working on peripherally for about 10 years. And I just wanna finish that damn thing and hope to direct it. I don't really wanna talk about what it is, but I do have dreams and it's not too late.
[00:46:57] It's not,
[00:46:57] Cris: I'm 51 and I'm on this. I'm [00:47:00] 54, where you go and I'm gonna keep bugging you. Because I want you to direct, please bug me. So my film alone girl, it's a coming a middle age story wrapped in an unromantic comedy.
[00:47:10] Susan: Okay. You've said that a lot of times say it slower cuz I didn't quite get it. Yeah. So it's
[00:47:14] Cris: a coming of middle age story wrapped in an unromantic comedy like it.
[00:47:19] So I've taken the romcom and turned it on its head. Okay. So by the end of the film, it builds up to a giant proposal that she says no to because she's realized that she's happy single mm-hmm , which is me. It's my heart on every page of this script. Love it. So what would, as a, as someone who's got the experience that you have of working with directors and working in this genre.
[00:47:40] Romcom. What do you think I need to think about as I'm prepping my storyboards or my shot list? What do I need to think about? So I do the minimal amount of having to re-shoot
[00:47:50] Susan: or anything. Oh, that's a great question. My first answer would be, make sure you get coverage. So many student films that I see do these winners and a winner [00:48:00] is where you have a camera.
[00:48:01] That's moving usually a steady camp throughout the scene, and you capture the whole scene in one shot. Give yourself. Even if you shoot a winner and maybe you'll even use it, cover the scene in shots that are editable, because chances are you're gonna wanna cut the scene down or change something. So give yourself options.
[00:48:19] That would be my number one advice. And think about transitions from one scene to the next. You don't have to stick with them, but you might wanna think about how you're gonna get from one scene to the other and then throw that away, give yourself options that, you know, actually I wanna end on the closeup of my main character, because we wanna think about what she's feeling at that moment.
[00:48:40] And then we'll start the next scene in a wide shot where maybe you had thought of it the opposite when you shot it. So yeah, just make sure you have coverage at transitions as well. So you have options of how to get from one scene to the next.
[00:48:53] Cris: Yeah, no, I'm shooting two camera, so, oh wow. Cause I I'm a big believer that the, and I learned this from all of [00:49:00] the doc stuff I've done is it's in the reaction.
[00:49:02] Oftentimes.
[00:49:03] Susan: You know, that's true, but I would say problem with two camera, although I'm sure you'll find a way to do it and I'm not experienced on set. So this is also coming from my understanding and not my experience is that the lighting has to be different because now you have to light for the other side.
[00:49:18] If you're shooting a second camera, when you're shooting a single camera, you can focus on just making the lighting, how you want it on that character. And. Necessarily compromise where you might wanna shadow on that person that you wouldn't be able to have. If you're lighting the other side, the reactions you will get from that side, even though they'll be edited later, those reactions are super important, but they don't have to be shot at the same time.
[00:49:43] I'll
[00:49:43] Cris: keep that in mind. so I heard cuz I listened to a lot of podcasts and the DGA has one. I don't know if you knew that. And they did a series of, I, I don't know which theater it was out here. I'm assuming it was their own, but they had all of the directors who'd been nominated on stage and [00:50:00] they were all talking this year and it was fascinating.
[00:50:02] There's it's a two part, if you wanna find it on podcasts, I look. Yeah. But one thing, one thing that Spielberg said, he said this interesting thing and I wanna know what your take is on it. Cuz I'm I am shooting something. That's got it. It's a comedy at its heart. It has, it has dips and low it's. Did you ever see beginners?
[00:50:18] I love begin. It was a mic. Yeah. So that's a very big inspiration for my film because at its heart, there's a father, daughter, mm-hmm, kind of relationship. But Spielberg said that if the crew laughs like, if it's an out loud laughter moment that it won't be funny on screen or edit, that's
[00:50:34] Susan: probably true.
[00:50:35] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'll in my experience, whatever the circle take is on something funny, I just ignore what was circled because a lot of times, things that seem funny at the moment, whatever energy is happening with the crew on set at that moment, doesn't necessarily come through on the film. And it's not always the best take.
[00:50:53] I mean, it might be, but it very often, it's not. So I, that's funny, I, you put that on your email to me as a [00:51:00] question, and I thought, wow, that's really great that she mentioned that because it is something that I found is true. I didn't know. Spielberg said
[00:51:06] Cris: that. Yeah, I was, it was something I've never heard that before.
[00:51:09] And I like, I'd love to ask Jo Apatow that question to see if he thinks the same
[00:51:13] Susan: thing would too. I, I, you might get different answers from different
[00:51:16] Cris: people. It was just because I'm going into doing this. I was like, I should keep mindful of that and be open. Yeah. If you
[00:51:23] Susan: get a really funny thing in take one, don't stop.
[00:51:26] Yeah. Get some options. .
[00:51:28] Cris: Yeah, exactly. So when it comes to an anatomy of a scene and I saw that you did something on, I think it was tad pole. There was a Sundance thing.
[00:51:36] Susan: Oh yeah. Oh, wow. You did
[00:51:37] Cris: your research. I couldn't find it. I wanted to watch it to see what you guys said, but what, what do I have to
[00:51:43] Susan: keep in mind?
[00:51:44] I have, I might have a VHS of that. Oh, maybe I should transfer that at some point. Cuz I haven't watched that back in years. It was
[00:51:51] Cris: just an interesting, I was like, I wonder what they have to say, cuz you know, going, preparing to do my first film, I wanna be as prepared as I can be. And [00:52:00] what do you have to say about anatomy of a scene that I, as a director should keep my eye on whether it's actor's performances or the written word or thinking about how it's gonna go into the edit bay.
[00:52:10] Susan: Yeah. First of all, I think you should get an objective editor if you can, if you can afford it because just having, even if you do the first assembly yourself, it's always important to get someone objective to try something you would've never tried, but I think. Yeah, I've only done objective editing except for the, my documentary and my diary film.
[00:52:32] And so when I approach a scene, I try not to read the script or think about what was intended at all and just see what's there. So I watch the footage. I see what's there. And I take note of what hits me instinctually. And I also borrow this from Walter merch, the great editor. I
[00:52:51] Cris: was gonna say that's from his book.
[00:52:53] I, cause I love that book. I told everyone
[00:52:55] who
[00:52:55] Susan: asked yeah. In the blink of an eye. Yeah.
[00:52:58] Cris: Like writers will continually on Twitter. [00:53:00] Go, what book should I read? And you will, if you went on a history of my tweets, I have tweeted Walter me's book a nauseum because it is fantastic for anyone to read, whether you're a director or writer.
[00:53:11] Yeah.
[00:53:11] Susan: He's written a lot of books at this point now, but the famous one is just a transcription of a speech that he made and that one's called in the blink of an eye. Yeah, that's the one. Yeah. But he also did conversations with Walter merch and then there's another one. I forget what it's called, but I'm in that one.
[00:53:27] Oh, cool. I ended up having a conversation with Walter merch and my email. I didn't know. I had no idea that it would be involved, but there's an email from me in his book talking about how frustrated I was with Apple's final cut pro. And I was like, oh shit, I that's hilarious. I know. But anyway, but just back to this idea that I borrowed from Walter merch is I think, I remember hearing him say at one point, if he's got his pen to his paper and he's watching the dailies, and if his brain thinks banana, when he's, which is, has nothing [00:54:00] to do with what he's looking at, he'll write down banana
[00:54:03] I always cracked me up. So the idea is whatever your brain is doing, and maybe he was hungry for a banana at that moment, but it doesn't matter. The point is just write down your thoughts as they happen. And what's really striking you. Most. Steven Soderberg said something really amazing to me when I started working on.
[00:54:24] When I started working on and anything is go and everything is going fine. The Spalding gray monologues, because I, he was gonna shoot, he was gonna shoot some footage on the Staten island ferry. He was gonna have actors read from Spalding's journals. He had all these ideas, but he had never made it a doc, a documentary and didn't know how to approach it.
[00:54:42] So I watched the, a lot of the 90 hours of footage that I got of Spalding gray. And then I put about 15 minutes together and I got super excited and said, Steven, you gotta come over and watch this. I was cutting it home. He came over. He watched it. And I said, I think you have something here [00:55:00] without shooting anything.
[00:55:00] We could make a completely archival film with found with the footage that we have. And he got excited too and said, keep going. And I said, just as a director, and by the way, I remain intimidated by Steven Soderberg to this day. But I still have, I've worked with him one on one. Wow. But I find, I just find him incredibly intimidating in a good way.
[00:55:22] Like it keeps me on my toes. And so I, as he was walking off the door, I said, what as a director, what is the note you wanna give me of what I should be looking for in the footage? And he said, just pull whatever's compelling. And I was like, wow, that's total autonomy, whatever I find compelling, just use my instincts.
[00:55:40] And so. To any film. That's my approach. Really, when you're looking at the footage is what's striking you as you're watching it as that moment that you wanna build the whole scene around. How do you get to that moment and how do you get out of that moment? But
[00:55:54] Cris: yeah, I was interested in, you said something about not reading the script when you get into the [00:56:00] edit bay, do you read the script before that, like when you get brought onto the project?
[00:56:03] Oh yes. Do you need to be interested in the project and to work with the director? The.
[00:56:09] Susan: Yeah. I always read the script before I meet with the director the first time. And then we talk about the script and that's usually how an interview will go and how I'll get a job is by discussing the script and any ideas I have about it.
[00:56:20] Someone like Gary Winick, who I worked with for so many years would want me to edit the script and give ideas of how we could actually edit the script. But not most directors I've worked with. Haven't had me do that, but occasionally they do with editors, they trust. And it's not like I don't look at the script at all I do, but I just try to see what's there, especially if there's improv and just make the best scene out of what's there, as opposed to what was originally intended.
[00:56:45] I
[00:56:45] Cris: was just curious, like how far that went. I
[00:56:48] Susan: do read the script. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:56:50] Cris: But I do think there's value. There's real value in knowing the script, but divorcing yourself from it. Once the footage comes in to a certain. Because you can only, was [00:57:00] it Walter merch? Basically one of the things he said was there's only what's on what you captured on screen.
[00:57:05] Not what's two feet over there. Yeah. Away from the frame. So that's what you have to work with. It's what you captured. How do you think film has changed in the, when it come in the respective of editing since you started to now? Because I think the styles changed a bit. Right? What people see? I
[00:57:21] Susan: think so.
[00:57:21] Um, I did start on. and learned how to edit on film a little bit. I knew how long it took to make that decision of when you were gonna cut out of a certain shot and cut into the next one. And you took your time a little bit more because you don't want a bunch of little frames that you have to then tape back on or so you, you were a little more careful now people cut so quickly and sometimes it bothers me when I see the way my students cut.
[00:57:47] It's so UN precise. And I think that premier, from what I can see is a little more UN precise than how I'm used to working in an avid because you're moving blocks of things around and putting them in the timeline as [00:58:00] opposed to like. Picking a frame and marking it in and in or, and out, do you think that's
[00:58:04] Cris: true?
[00:58:04] Actually, I think somebody who is who hasn't, who's maybe learned on by watching a YouTube video might, might be like that. I get incredibly precise with my premier because you can do in and out points and stuff like that. And I even will watch it and go, no, it needs like it's the pacing thing. Like I, but I think you can get into that kind of, I'm trying to move quickly.
[00:58:27] I'm just gonna move this block here or there, it, it lends itself to being able to do that. Okay. Avid is a little less intuitive, which I think is why it lends to needing to be precise. Yeah. So I'm starting a very new thing. And this is your you're you're my Guinea pig. Okay. Because my show is called blissful spinster.
[00:58:45] Me and my friends have been calling it BS. It's a segment called I call BS and I'm gonna give you a word and then I want you to expound on it with I call BS. Okay. And it's an editing word and it's
[00:58:56] Susan: continuity. Okay. So. I've worked [00:59:00] with an editor named Artie Schmidt at one point who edited Forrest Gump.
[00:59:04] He came on to do a little bit of editing on Charlotte's web. And I remember we all quoted him because he said continuity is for sissies. And also Margaret Booth is quoted of saying something like, I don't care about continuity, but let me just say this first, first I'll define continuity, which is making it seem like one shot is seamlessly cutting into the next as if you're in the same time.
[00:59:29] And. So if you're cutting from a closeup of somebody and their hand is in the shot, and then they go and reach for a cup that, that shot of the cup, which is in a different shot, you understand, as an audience viewer, that is supposed to be the next moment in the same time and space, it might have been shot two weeks later in a totally different place.
[00:59:48] So that's the idea of continuity. It's easy to call BS on continuity and say, it doesn't matter. But first we have to acknowledge that it does matter, but if the [01:00:00] emotional arc of the character or some something in the action of the story makes it such that the continuity isn't possible going from one shot to the next, then the continuity goes out the window and we don't care.
[01:00:14] You want people won't notice it so much. So it is important to try to create continuity between shots. It really doesn't matter in the gist of things. If the other elements aren't working. So emotion is first storytelling is next pacing. All of those other things come before continuity, but it's not to say continuity is not important at all.
[01:00:35] Cris: Okay, cool. Do you have anything that you wanna get the word out about or do you just want me to cheer you on. To so that you become a director. .
[01:00:45] Susan: I want you to cheer me on. So I become a director. Okay, good.
[01:00:49] Cris: cause I'm going to do that. Um, I'm so happy that you agreed to do my podcast and it's been so fun getting to know you a bit and to learn from you.
[01:00:56] So thank you so much, Susan. Thank
[01:00:59] Susan: you so much. And [01:01:00] let's keep in touch.
[01:01:01] Cris: Yeah. Let's keep in touch. I think we've made a friendship.
[01:01:03] Susan: Absolutely good luck with your
[01:01:05] Cris: podcast. Thanks and good luck with your directing
[01:01:07] Susan: career. Thank you. all right. Take care.
[01:01:10] Cris: Thank you so much for tuning into bliss. Spinster. If any of these conversations are resonating with you, please subscribe on apple podcast, Google podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:01:20] You can find bliss will spinster on Instagram and Twitter and through our website, gly will spinster.com. Again, thanks so much for joining me on this journey and until next week mind happy.