Meet Oren Soffer! Oren lives in Los Angeles and is an up and coming cinematographer with a bold cinematic eye. Oren’s work includes two feature films; “Fixation” that premiered at TIFF and “Allswell” that premiered at TriBeCa in 2022 as well as Co-Dping the film “The Creator” with cinematographer Greig Fraser.
Meet Oren Soffer! Oren lives in Los Angeles and is an up and coming cinematographer with a bold cinematic eye. Oren’s work includes two feature films; “Fixation” that premiered at TIFF and “Allswell” that premiered at TriBeCa in 2022 as well as Co-Dping the film “The Creator” with cinematographer Greig Fraser. While studying film at NYU’s Tisch School of the Arts Oren was nominated for the ASC Gordon Willis Student Heritage Award, and was a finalist for the Arri Volker Bahnemann Award for Cinematography. Oren has also shot multiple award-winning short films, including “Opera of Cruelty,” 'which won a Student Academy Award, and “See You Soon,” which won the audience award at the Palm Springs International Shortsfest.Recently, Oren has started co-hosting his own podcast called Cinematography Salon which has some great in-depth conversations on both the technical aspects of filmmaking as well as what it’s like to navigate the world of film as a career. Oren and I met at a UTA party last September and we had such a great conversation that I asked if he’d be on Blissful Spinster and I was delighted when he said yes! I have to admit my conversation with Oren is one of my favorites to date. His passion for the art of filmmaking is palpable and he is all at once introspective, humorous and articulate. He loves to share knowledge and is full of wonderful nuggets for filmmakers of any level. Beyond the joy of watching Oren succeed at what he loves, what brings me the most joy is knowing I can now call Oren a friend We had an Amazing chat and I’m so excited to bring you Part 1 of my conversation with Oren!
** Just a couple of fun notes before we get going… this episode was recorded nearly a year ago, last October and you’ll hear Oren and I refer to the film “The Creator” as it’s former name “True Love”, also, this episode will be part 1, as Oren has graciously agreed to come back as a guest to record a bonus episode and talk about what he’s been up to since our last chat and to talk a little bit more in depth on “The Creator” on the eve of the film’s release.
Oren’s Bio:
Oren recently shot the feature film ‘The Creator,’ directed by Gareth Edwards, along with cinematographer Greig Fraser ASC ACS, slated for release on September 29, 2023. Two of his other recent features premiered at the TIFF and TriBeCa film festivals in 2022. He has also shot multiple award-winning short films, including 'Opera of Cruelty,' which won a Student Academy Award, and ‘See You Soon,’ which won the audience award at the Palm Springs International Shortsfest before subsequently premiering on Short of the Week and receiving a Vimeo Staff Pick. During his studies at NYU’s Tisch School of the Arts, Oren was nominated for the ASC Gordon Willis Student Heritage Award, and was a finalist for the Arri Volker Bahnemann Award for Cinematography. Oren has also shot hundreds of commercials and music videos for a variety of clients including Nike, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, HBO, Foot Locker, Grey Goose Vodka, Doritos, Kohler, Wilson Tennis, Marriott Hotels, ACE Hardware, Crest, Viacom, and Universal Studios.
Connect with Oren on: Instagram
Learn more about Oren’s work on his website
Listen to Oren’s Podcast Cinematographer’s Salon
The Creator is opening in theatres September 29th! - GO SEE IT!
Learn more about the Blissful Spinster Podcast and connect with Cris on the website, Instagram
If you’re enjoying Blissful Spinster please consider supporting me by visiting my author page on Amazon - Pawsman Prints and picking up a purrfect gift for yourself or the cat lover in your life with one of my eclectic cat-themed journals! Meow!
20. Oren Soffer_ Part 1
[00:00:00] Cris: Hi, and welcome to Blissful Spinster. This week's guest is cinematographer Oren Soffer. Just a couple of fun notes before we get going. This episode was recorded nearly a year ago, last October, and you'll hear Oren and I refer to the film The Creator as its former name, True Love. Also, this episode will be a part one, as Oren has graciously agreed to come back as a [00:00:20] guest to record a bonus episode and talk about what he's been up to since our last chat, and to talk a little bit more in depth on The Creator on the eve of the film's release.
[00:00:29] Cris: Oren lives in Los Angeles and is an up and coming cinematographer with a bold cinematic eye. Oren's work includes two feature films, Fixation, that premiered at TIFF, and All's Well, that premiered at [00:00:40] Tribeca, both in 2022. As well as co DPing the film The Creator with cinematographer Greg Fraser. While studying film at NYU's Tisch School of the Arts, Oren was nominated for the ASC Gordon Willis Student Heritage Award, and he was also a finalist for the Ari Velker Binnerman Award for Cinematography.
[00:00:58] Cris: Oren has also shot [00:01:00] multiple award winning short films, including Opera of Cruelty, which won the Student Academy Award. And See You Soon, which won the Audience Award at the Palm Springs International Short Fest. And let me tell you, See You Soon is a really, really good short film, and you can find it on Oren's website, if you'd like to take a look.
[00:01:16] Cris: Recently, Oren has started co hosting his own podcast called [00:01:20]Cinematography Salon, which has some... great in depth conversations on both the technical aspects of filmmaking, as well as what it takes to navigate the world of film as a career. Oren and I met at a UTA party last September, and we had such a great conversation that I asked him if he'd be on Blissful Spinster, and I was delighted when he said yes.
[00:01:38] Cris: I have to admit that my [00:01:40] conversation with Orin is one of my favorites to date. His passion for the art of filmmaking is palpable and he's all at once introspective, humorous, and articulate. He loves to share knowledge and he is full of wonderful nuggets for filmmakers of any level. Beyond the absolute joy of watching Orin succeed at what he loves, what brings me the most joy is [00:02:00] knowing that I can now call him a friend.
[00:02:01] Cris: We had such an amazing chat. And I am so excited to bring you part one of my conversation with Orin. So however you found this podcast, thank you for tuning in and please enjoy this week's episode. Hi Orin. Hello.
[00:02:16] Oren: Hi. How's it going? So good. Having a beautiful, [00:02:20] lovely afternoon in Glendale, California. The sun is shining, the birds are chirping.
[00:02:24] Oren: The light is skipping off the floor in a beautiful way. And things are great. So a DP's dream. As always, when I was looking for apartments, I was like, listen, we need a big window. I need some natural light situation [00:02:40] in here, because if not, what am I supposed to look at wistfully? In the afternoon hours and ponder the beauty of natural light.
[00:02:50] Oren: So I have a great floor to ceiling window and ticks the box.
[00:02:54] Cris: So as listeners can hear, there's the tail end of an announcement here. I'm stuck in an airport, but I'm still doing my [00:03:00] podcast because I love doing my podcast. I love the
[00:03:02] Oren: dedication. And I was, it's so
[00:03:03] Cris: good, but I was also super excited to speak to you.
[00:03:06] Cris: Thank you for doing this.
[00:03:09] Oren: Absolutely stoked. We had such a great chat when we met. And I was like, Oh, podcast. Absolutely. Let's continue chatting. I would love literally nothing more. So I'm so [00:03:20]excited. You're a DP
[00:03:20] Cris: and I met you at a UTA party, which was super exciting for me. I hadn't been to one of those in a long time.
[00:03:25] Cris: I hadn't been to
[00:03:26] Oren: one of those ever, so. Good for us. Did you just get signed? Yeah. I signed with UTA
[00:03:30] Cris: earlier this year. Oh, amazing. I did look you up. We both have an international upbringing. I
[00:03:36] Oren: thought that was cool. Yes. I, uh, yeah. The international runs
[00:03:39] Cris: strong. [00:03:40] Yeah. So, how did your journey begin? To be, being a filmmaker?
[00:03:43] Cris: It, I
[00:03:43] Oren: always describe it as a two pronged, uh, journey. path that ended up converging at a certain point. And the first prong was just a love of movies as a kid, as most kids who grew up in like suburban America [00:04:00] do, became very quickly obsessed with Star Wars and Indiana Jones and Back to the Future. And Jurassic Park, which was very formative.
[00:04:10] Oren: I loved, I was a dinosaur kid, so I loved dinosaurs. Jurassic Park came out, I was five years old. That was like the greatest thing that's ever happened to me, is this movie coming out, and I can go see it in [00:04:20] theaters. And I remember seeing it in theaters, and I was completely unfazed by the, Like scary stuff in it.
[00:04:27] Oren: I just love the dinosaurs. I don't care. I love that they ate people. I thought that was cool. I had no issue with the terror aspect of it. I just thought it was great. And so that was pretty strong. In addition to that, I was also really [00:04:40] into art and drawing and painting. I was like a vociferous drawer as a kid, like three years old, drawing, drawing, and mostly dinosaurs, obviously, but also spaceships and stuff like that.
[00:04:52] Oren: Little boy stuff. It's cliche, but. It is what it is. And then as time went on, those interests converged. And [00:05:00] I, my family and I moved to Israel and I was 10 years old. And because my parents are from there, so it wasn't just random. And they didn't just put you
[00:05:07] Cris: on
[00:05:08] Oren: a plane. Yeah. Cause that would have been weird.
[00:05:09] Oren: They're just like, yeah, we're just going to Israel. Why? I don't know.
[00:05:12] Cris: That was always my answer when people said, why'd you grow up in Mexico? And I was like, well, I'm the youngest of six and. They had too many kids at home, so they just dropped
[00:05:19] Oren: me off. [00:05:20] Exactly. Yeah, like, I moved to Israel when I was 10. My family didn't.
[00:05:23] Oren: They just sent me over there. I don't know. Yeah. No, they were from there. My grandparents lived there. And we have a bunch of family there. Cousins and that kind of thing. So we moved when I was 10. And these interests continued. I went to arts middle school and focused on, on what they called plastic arts.
[00:05:39] Oren: So it's [00:05:40] like. Painting, drawing, sketching, charcoal, like all sorts of different materials. And then also sculpting and 3d art and also digital art. So it was kind of everything at the same time, I started developing an interest in filmmaking as a visual art form and the natural extension of that. Combined with [00:06:00] my, my like, cinephilia, and, and then in high school, we had a filmmaking class that you could take, so extra credit.
[00:06:09] Oren: Of course, I immediately jumped on it, and we made music videos and short films, all on mini DV. This was like, really, Lo fi compared to nowadays, but like early, early [00:06:20]digital tape, standard def always frustrated at the time. Like, why doesn't this look like the movies that I like? Like, what's the disconnect?
[00:06:26] Oren: I don't get it. I don't understand. Why does this absolutely garbage camcorder with a fixed built in servo zoom not look like. Cinema, I just couldn't understand and eventually figured it out. [00:06:40] But that was my first exposure to like cinematography as a craft. So during those three years of that class, we covered among other things, shot size, wide, medium, close up, focal lengths, composition, all the basics.
[00:06:54] Oren: And I got into some books at the time too. There's like the five C's of cinematography. It was very formative. [00:07:00] book called something directing. It's like a blue book with hands. Everybody. Yeah. Yeah. These are all like very foundational filmmaking books. And that was it. I think by that point, I knew that this is what I wanted to do.
[00:07:11] Oren: And this is what I was interested in. And then after a brief pause of pursuit of this interest to serve in the Israeli military for three years, which [00:07:20] is mandatory for Israeli citizens and residents, I applied to NYU sight unseen. Never been there. Didn't visit. Um, I was in the army, but applied anyway.
[00:07:29] Oren: Got in, went, and that was really the beginning of the professional part of the journey. Shooting student films, graduating with a little reel of student projects, and then that was in [00:07:40] 2014. Wow. And now we're here. Yeah. Now you're in LA, right? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I moved here four years ago, but I gave New York a good try.
[00:07:47] Oren: I think for eight years total for college, for post graduation and, uh, New York's a tough place to live. Not a huge fan. I have to say of living there. It's an amazing city to visit. And spend time in [00:08:00] and frolic around in and enjoy its many bounties. But living there is just, it was just a grind and I couldn't do it anymore.
[00:08:07] Oren: And LA is chill and it's just more my vibe, definitely more
[00:08:11] Cris: my vibe. Yeah. I always felt there's a really cool energy in New York in short bursts, I find for myself. And I also, I don't know if [00:08:20] you've been to Mexico city, but it's a little more spread out. In the, it's the same kind of spread out vibe that LA is to a certain extent.
[00:08:28] Cris: The streets are bigger, the, you don't have canyons of buildings and concrete unless you're in downtown, but you can always go somewhere else. Exactly. You just leave. In New
[00:08:36] Oren: York, it's everywhere, right? It's everywhere. You can't escape it. I mean, that like, [00:08:40] oppressive nature is, it's just everywhere.
[00:08:43] Cris: Yeah. So it made me feel very claustrophobic, especially when I was younger.
[00:08:47] Cris: I did. been I think four months there on a show and ended up running the marathon because I'd been training for it. Nice. That was in 2014 when you graduated. Oh, well
[00:08:56] Oren: I was just down the road from the marathon path, [00:09:00] I'm sure. It runs right through Manhattan. So yeah. Yeah, at least also the weather in LA is identical to the weather in Israel.
[00:09:06] Oren: It is a temperate, desert adjacent. Mediterranean climate. It's literally identical climate conditions. So this is a lot more my speed. And then the other thing is, yeah, like you said, New York has this really cool [00:09:20] energy, but I am proudly uncool. And so that was just not my scene. That's just, that wasn't it for me.
[00:09:28] Cris: Totally understand. There's one of those announcements going
[00:09:31] Oren: through. I love the announcements. I can't hear a word. They literally sound like, it's like the parents in Peanuts. That's all I hear. Well,
[00:09:39] Cris: to me, I'm [00:09:40] like, it's going to sound like, like airplane, which is one of my favorite
[00:09:43] Oren: comedies. Oh, fantastic.
[00:09:45] Oren: Yeah. The announcements in the beginning. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's great. The
[00:09:48] Cris: white zone is for looting and unloading.
[00:09:51] Oren: I can
[00:09:52] Cris: vividly picture it. I recently, I watched it during the pandemic. Because it is like a comfort film for me. And every time I watch it, [00:10:00] I find something new and I've been watching it since probably the late seventies.
[00:10:04] Cris: So that's saying a lot. Wow. And I just noticed that in the control room scenes, like the air traffic control room scenes, they had washing machines in there. They're like the counters were washing machines that were running and it cracked me. I was like, Oh my God, there's all these little [00:10:20] visual things. I have
[00:10:21] Oren: definitely never noticed that that's brilliant
[00:10:23] Cris: filmmaking.
[00:10:24] Cris: And actually one of your, cause you had, um, we'll get back to it, but I know the Coen brothers are some people that you are some influences of yours. And they're, they're certainly of mine. And every time I watch like the big Lebowski, there's something new for me to, Oh, absolutely. I, I [00:10:40] didn't, I'd never seen that before.
[00:10:41] Cris: I never got that line quite this
[00:10:43] Oren: way before. Yeah, well, that's a movie that I, I've seen that movie since I was 10, I think was the first time I saw it. And so definitely as you, as you get older, you get more of the jokes. They're also like five jokes per 10 seconds. So it's easy to miss some of them, but also just as some of them are quite [00:11:00] sophisticated.
[00:11:01] Oren: And so the 10 year old brain doesn't comprehend the brilliance. And then you start to learn about. Film history and then you start to realize oh, not only is this movie a bunch of quotable one liners It's actually like a really clever like parody slash subversion of the film noir genre And then it gained another layer of meaning once [00:11:20] I moved to LA because it's a very LA movie Yeah And once you start recognizing the different areas and landmarks and stuff in it It gains an even another layer of appreciation for it.
[00:11:30] Oren: So yeah Love that. So getting back on track, as we can talk about, I love going off the tracks, but yeah, so we'll get back on the track.
[00:11:37] Cris: Okay. But what, so I did watch [00:11:40] a few of your shorts and one of them you directed. So I'm wondering, was that what your initial track was or is cinematography? Cause like the friend you met, or my, our mutual friend now, David Bolin, he started out wanting to direct and then realized.
[00:11:54] Cris: He just, he really fell in love with cinematography and that's where his heart is now.
[00:11:58] Oren: So [00:12:00] what happened is when you get to film school, the first thing they ask everybody in the first symposium with the whole class is who wants to be a director? And everybody raises their hand because it just feels weird not to, because it, because otherwise it's like, why are you here?
[00:12:15] Oren: This isn't technical school. It's not AFI. It's not like [00:12:20] there's no cinematography track or whatever. It's people come here to learn filmmaking in general and directing. So I think when I went, I still had some residual interest in directing in theory, but I was, I also already knew that I loved cinematography and I was going to do cinematography and that interest in directing quickly waned, [00:12:40] but I did direct a thesis film.
[00:12:42] Oren: It's just the thing you do. It's just everybody. The program is so built around. production and directing and production courses that it felt it's not that I felt obligated, but it just felt like it would be a good thing to do to do that and to experience it and to have it and then to set it aside after I graduated.
[00:12:59] Oren: [00:13:00] And, uh, and so that's what I did. I directed my thesis film junior year specifically. So that senior year I could focus on cinematography and shooting other people's thesis films. So I got mine out of the way early in order to focus on what I really wanted to do. Well, no, that's cool. Yeah. But it was fun.
[00:13:15] Oren: I mean, I enjoyed it. I haven't directed since. It's been nearly 10 years, which is insane. [00:13:20] But, but it was, yeah, it was a good experience. I don't think, right now, I certainly have no interest in it. I don't know what the future will hold, but yeah, directing is tough. It's a tough gig. It's a really tough gig.
[00:13:30] Oren: And I don't, I have little Envy of those who pursue it and nothing but admiration, honestly, because yeah, it's wild. It's just wild. [00:13:40] It's a,
[00:13:40] Cris: it can be a wild ride. Yeah. And you have to have so much belief in yourself and the project you're trying to
[00:13:46] Oren: pursue. That's the thing. That's the wild thing is the craft of directing is a whole other beast.
[00:13:52] Oren: Fascinating thing and elusive. And I think one that even a lot of working directors don't always have fully down, [00:14:00] but the pursuit of directing as a career is really, what's crazy because unless you manage to sidestep into it, which for instance, many DPS who have later become directors did, they've became quite established as DPS.
[00:14:14] Oren: And then we're able to sidestep into directing quite easily, mostly in television is the common pathway [00:14:20] is like you shoot. a season of TV, and then in season two, they'll give you an episode to direct. That happens all the time. But directing TV is obviously quite different than directing a film, certainly than directing an indie film, that you need to be the main engine of its moving through stages of production and enthusiasm.
[00:14:39] Oren: And getting other [00:14:40] people enthused about it. And that's the part that I like, can't, I can't do it. I can't do that at all. That's beyond my capabilities. And that's where the admiration comes from. Mostly just the gumption. I love it. Well,
[00:14:52] Cris: I think I also, I think it's always great when people choose to step into the shoes of [00:15:00] what everyone else is up to.
[00:15:01] Cris: So they understand, like you understand a director from a different Point of view, not just from the outside and way back when I thought, because I was, I like you Spielberg was my entry point, but it was close encounters. Cause I'm a little older than you just a little bit, a little bit. Cause I saw it in the theater, not in a [00:15:20] VHS,
[00:15:21] Oren: I was not even an idea.
[00:15:22] Oren: You were not born. Yes. I was not even a concept in 1977. I wasn't even under consideration, much less.
[00:15:30] Cris: I saw it in 78 because I saw it in Mexico and I don't know if it was like that in Israel, but we would get the movies like a year later. Oh yeah.
[00:15:37] Oren: Big delay. Yeah. This was a huge
[00:15:38] Cris: issue for me. It [00:15:40] was to me too.
[00:15:40] Cris: But, um, but I fell in love. I was like, somebody made that for me. Oh yeah. That wasn't, it wasn't like I'm relating to the boy. It was like, Somebody put that story together and I want to do that and I didn't necessarily know what director was at a, but I started writing short stories. I started reading plays because that's what I could get a hold of because I couldn't, [00:16:00] I didn't know it was in Mexico, like where I was going to find a Samuel French to get me a screenplay.
[00:16:04] Cris: Right. But I've also on my journey done. I've done lighting, I've done scene design, I've done technical direction in theater, I've done, you know, like, like my, did all of that thinking if I write my script, I'm going to wait a second.[00:16:20]
[00:16:23] Cris: Courtesy phone, please. But I just figured it would teach me how to write my screenplays in a way that it spoke to every discipline. Because a screenplay is as you've probably heard people call it a blueprint. I like to call it a conversation. Oh, I love that. Me as the screenwriter. I'm having a conversation with [00:16:40] you as a DP when you're reading my script.
[00:16:41] Cris: Yeah. And if I, if I've communicated it right, even if I'm not the director, at least a portion of my vision might end up on that screen. No,
[00:16:49] Oren: a hundred
[00:16:49] Cris: percent. Because you've
[00:16:52] Oren: interpreted it that way. No, for sure. And I mean, honestly, for me as a DP, it's like the, the, the best scripts are the ones I end up meeting with [00:17:00] the director afterward, making the assumption that they have written the script.
[00:17:03] Oren: Right. So in a situation where the director has written the script, if I meet with them and then I present My initial instinct of ideas that came from reading the script, the best scripts are the ones where when I do that, the directors go, Oh yeah, that's exactly what I was going for. And it's not just some [00:17:20] random mind melt situation.
[00:17:21] Oren: It's just the script clearly communicates or at least inspires those images. And it, yeah, it's like in conversation with myself, with other films, with other stories, and it all comes through in such a clear way that. I'm just pulling stuff out of [00:17:40] the conversation that it is eliciting. So I really love that.
[00:17:44] Oren: And those are, and the ones where that doesn't happen, the ones where you read the script and are, Oh, nothing's really coming up. I'm not getting anything from this. It's just words kind of tend to be the less good shooting experience because you're not pulling from anything. You're just floating [00:18:00] around in the ether.
[00:18:01] Oren: And it's, it feels unmoored and that's not a good feeling for a DP. I feel like cinematography is a constant conversation. It's in conversation with the story and with the intention. And if those are clear, then it's a good conversation. It flows and it's easy and it's creative and it [00:18:20] inspires all these other things.
[00:18:21] Oren: And when it's not. Then you get, I don't know, stuck and hit a wall and can't think of anything interesting to do or how to shoot a scene. It just ends up being bluff like coverage. And that's no, that's never fun anyway. Well,
[00:18:35] Cris: yeah. And then it, I think then the, as the conversation ends up in post the [00:18:40]editor, if the conversation has blossomed on set.
[00:18:42] Cris: It continues that conversation and for the editor, right? And if it's uninspired, it's not, you're certainly not going to inspire the editor.
[00:18:51] Oren: No, they're not going to have much
[00:18:52] Cris: to work with. Sorry. But that conversation to me continues all the way into the audience. I'm in charge of what the [00:19:00] audience gets. I know what I intended, but I would never want to go, Oh, you got it wrong.
[00:19:05] Cris: Whatever that audience gets from my story is. What they got. So the best, if those conversations are flowing from the beginning, I think that's when all of a sudden the audience has a really good reaction, whether it's good, whether they're challenged or they're [00:19:20] inspired by whatever that we produce.
[00:19:22] Oren: Couldn't agree more. I think that's such a beautiful way. I've never, I've never heard that, heard it described in that term before and I love that. So I may steal this. You can
[00:19:31] Cris: steal it. I will. Just, uh, maybe borrow it and use my name too. Yes,
[00:19:35] Oren: the credit will be given. I refuse to be one of those [00:19:40] people who steals memes and then repost them without the original original memester or artist or whatever.
[00:19:47] Oren: I have a huge issue with that. So every time I will say. Oh yeah, filmmaking is a conversation. It'll be copyright.
[00:19:57] Cris: But I mean, that that's come to me after, you know, I mean, I've been [00:20:00] at this for a while. I'm still trying to get my first film off, but I know it's going to be good because I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have been able to write the script I wrote.
[00:20:09] Cris: Um, when I came here at 26, it just wouldn't have come out of me, you know, and that's one thing I, I do wonder fresh young, you know, writers coming out of film school and they tend to want to [00:20:20] sit in their apartments and write and that's great, but you need to live a
[00:20:23] Oren: little too. Yeah, you do. That's tough.
[00:20:26] Oren: Honestly, I think that writing. And pursuing a career in writing, which I have a few friends who are doing, is somehow even harder than pursuing a career in directing. [00:20:40] And I think the only thing that supersedes pursuing a career in writing in the industry is acting, because bless those poor souls, like, what they go through, I cannot.
[00:20:52] Oren: Fathom the rejection and being judged on your looks and the it factor, [00:21:00]which is so indescribable, but is a thing. It's a thing that an actor just has a certain like charisma and presence that you can't, I don't even know. Like, I don't think anybody knows what it is, but it just is a thing. So that's so hard, but writing is so hard because of, I think, because of this specifically, because you need, [00:21:20] you need to have experienced the world and experience life in order to have something to write about.
[00:21:24] Oren: And, and that's hard to do. That just takes time. And in the meantime, you have to do something.
[00:21:30] Cris: I don't know. You also think you're But you also think I have to be in LA and I have to be keep writing. And all of a sudden you, you don't live or you don't, or you know, and that's, you have to feel like you're pursuing it.
[00:21:39] Cris: Yeah. Yeah. [00:21:40] And that's, and I get it. I get, I was, I've been there. Yeah. I've been in that, that, that mindset. And because I'm, I am a writer director and I first and foremost, when I moved, I thought, Oh, the route is kind of like you were thinking your own route, right? I was like, Oh, so if I write and maybe I get on a TV show.
[00:21:58] Cris: And then maybe I can write a [00:22:00] feature and then I'll jump to directing, which sounds good in theory. And several people have done that, but everyone's route is different. Like for anyone listening out there, you can ask a hundred people how they got to where they are and you're going to get a hundred different stories.
[00:22:15] Cris: Some of which you're like, that is an unbelievable story. You met someone where [00:22:20] in Dubai at an airport and now you're making a film. Like there, there's all kinds of stories, right? Yeah. There's I think what I've learned throughout all of those years, and partly because I work in doc in the TV area, you begin to understand as you're going through the footage, when you're in post, just how true it is that if you're open and [00:22:40] vulnerable, your story is going to become as specific as it feels to you, because it's your story, whatever it is, you're, you're ripping out of yourself.
[00:22:49] Cris: It becomes.
[00:22:55] Cris: And I think the young writers I've seen who have say, [00:23:00] um, whiplash, that came from a very personal space in his life that he was willing to dig in deep and pull out. Or I can't remember who wrote Precious, but that's another story that comes from deep within a young person, right? And those are, it's, it's cultivating a willingness.
[00:23:19] Cris: [00:23:20] Which of course humans aren't necessarily born with that willingness to dig deep inside of yourself and you know, the script I'm I wrote it's like my heart on every
[00:23:28] Oren: page. I think that comes across every time honestly and like I really do Yeah, that's a that's the that's almost the most important thing and it and that doesn't it doesn't necessarily mean that [00:23:40] every film needs to be The personal story of the right.
[00:23:43] Oren: No, no, no, no. You know what I mean? But it's interesting because you can tell when a movie like Mad Max Fury Road. Okay. There's nothing personal in here in the literal sense, but the George Miller's and the other writers, everybody who worked on it, their [00:24:00] heart is in every scene and on every page you feel it, right?
[00:24:02] Oren: It's just something intangible that you feel. Yeah. And, uh, or like something like Black Panther, like Ryan, obviously it's a fantasy. Superhero, but there's a genuineness to the emotion that's coming from somewhere and you can feel it and you can feel the difference what separates those movies from insert [00:24:20] generic studio film here that is content versus storytelling filmmaking.
[00:24:26] Oren: Yeah, and it's we just want to work on those movies. It's why is it so hard? All anyone wants is to make those kinds of movies, but it's they're rare and it's hard to come by and it's hard to come by writers and directors and. Execs and producers and whoever that want to [00:24:40]get it done. Well,
[00:24:41] Cris: yeah, I would contend.
[00:24:42] Cris: I don't know that it's that hard to find writer directors because we're all out here. I think there's a, I hate to use the terms, you know, but there's, there's an awful lot of bubble gum out there and it all costs, you know, a hundred million dollars to make. And where are the, the five to. 30 [00:25:00] million films these days, because that's where that sweet spot is for the films we're talking about.
[00:25:04] Cris: Generally, those films are usually stories that are made for that kind of that indie indie level 10 or the mini studio 10 to 30 million. And yeah, those Have been squeezed out for a while. Yeah. [00:25:20] And that's, uh, you know, in the seventies and the eighties when you grew up and were watching certain films, the Cullen brothers, they can make films now because they garnered their name.
[00:25:30] Cris: But I do wonder if they'd come up with blood simple or raising Arizona today.
[00:25:35] Oren: Blood simple comes out now. What, yeah. What happens? Yeah.
[00:25:38] Cris: Yeah. Cause I fell in love with [00:25:40] them on raising Arizona. You know, that was an amazed, blow my mind film. Um, but I do wonder, I mean, even, I think I told you, I had James Deakins on my podcast, which was fucking amazing.
[00:25:53] Cris: But then they asked me to be on Team Geek and towards the end, you know, we, you know, we got [00:26:00] into this conversation about, you know, cause he asked me, what about, what about Netflix for my film? And I'm like, they squeeze, they're the ones that are killing indie feature right now.
[00:26:09] Oren: They're the worst offenders.
[00:26:10] Cris: Yeah. I'm like, how many movies have you heard of right now? That have been ready to shoot. They had actors signed and all of a sudden the actor, name [00:26:20] actors, call them up and go, I just got offered 20 Netflix saying I'm out.
[00:26:25] Oren: Well, and on the flip side. Yeah. How many movies in the 20 to 30 million range produced by Netflix can you name that have contributed to the filmmaking climate, the power of the dog, but that's not really the same because Netflix.
[00:26:38] Oren: Have a thing with [00:26:40] our tours. So Jane Campion is an extremely established filmmaker. Martin Scorsese Alfonso Cuaron. Yeah, all the people they've produced films for Prestige films that fit this budget range. They're all established filmmakers because Netflix by definition Is a risk averse Business model driven by [00:27:00] algorithm and content creation and content generation and content performance.
[00:27:05] Oren: And that's what drives their stuff. So they're like, Oh, Martin Scorsese, prestige drama. We can sell that we can get awards off of that, et cetera. But taking a chance on the Coen brothers of the 2020s. No, absolutely not. [00:27:20] And it makes you think because I feel like somebody did make Blood Simple recently.
[00:27:24] Oren: And it was, um, it was Blue Ruin, Jeremy Saulnier's film. It's, it's a great, taut thriller, super low budget, made completely independently, not even with a production company. Just raised money, went out and made it. He shot it himself. He [00:27:40] was the DP. They used prosumer gear and it was so good. Just tight thriller.
[00:27:46] Oren: Clever has this flavor, like very kind of Texas flavor to it. That's very particular and has this attitude and it's funny and dark. It's literally blood simple. In the 20, 2010s, [00:28:00] and then it's what happened to that guy. He made another great film green room. That was a little bit of a bigger budget. It was four mil and that was produced by an indie studio.
[00:28:09] Oren: I think that was a 24 pretty sure. And then I don't know what he's done since like, like where. How come Jeremy Solnier can't go [00:28:20] to a 24 or whatever studio that he has an established relationship with and say, I've got a new script, my new script, you know, give me 20 30 years is they'll show up to whoever they'll shop it around.
[00:28:32] Oren: I don't think they have the one studio that they work with, but they'll shop it around with a budget. In mind, because they, it just comes as a package deal. It's [00:28:40] ready to go. Here's the script. Now they take co directing credit. But at the time it was like, Ethan's the producer. Joel's the director. We're going to make this.
[00:28:45] Oren: Well, I
[00:28:46] Cris: think they're separated now. I
[00:28:47] Oren: think Ethan's directing. Now they're separated. Yeah, I know. Ethan's directing a solo film. Ethan,
[00:28:51] Cris: Ethan, I just saw the trailer for Ethan's new film.
[00:28:54] Oren: Isn't that crazy? Like after all these years, Joel's like, I'm going to do this solo project. And Ethan's like, well, I'm not [00:29:00] interested in filmmaking anymore.
[00:29:01] Oren: I'm going to do, I'm going to do theater. Yeah. And then now Ethan's doing a solo film. I'm like, what, what is going on? What has happened? Up is down, left is right. Like how can the Coen brothers split up? This doesn't make it as unfathomable. Like after 60 years of they gotten sick of each other, it took 60 years.
[00:29:17] Oren: That's crazy. I don't
[00:29:18] Cris: know if they've gotten sick of [00:29:20] each other. I just wonder if they just wanted to see. Can I do it? Yeah. You know, without my brother. Oh, fair
[00:29:25] Oren: enough. I mean, and, and yeah, well, and look, to be fair, Tragedy of Macbeth was not a Coen brothers film. Like it's very much its own little thing.
[00:29:31] Oren: And so I'm sure that Ethan's project is also, it's some, it's going to be its own thing, something different. Yeah. But anyway, I hope I'm excited for their.[00:29:40]
[00:29:41] Cris: Did you happen to see, uh, Ethan wrote this really funny letter about, to, to some publication about Joel separating from him.
[00:29:51] Oren: Yeah, it was hilarious. I did
[00:29:53] Cris: see that. It was great. The It was that he'd broken his light bright when he was a kid. The light bright. They attributed all of it [00:30:00] to that.
[00:30:00] Oren: That's amazing.
[00:30:01] Oren: Yeah. I'm sure they're still on good terms. I have no doubt. No,
[00:30:03] Cris: I'm positive. They are. I just, yeah. And you know, I'm sure that I would, I think, I don't know. It just feels like they're a band that's we're doing our solo project and then they're going to come back. I
[00:30:14] Oren: feel like there's a couple more masterpieces left.
[00:30:16] Oren: They're not, they're not old yet. There's still more to come.
[00:30:19] Cris: Yeah. Yeah. [00:30:20] But yeah, there's some articles that have been coming out. Um, and there's a couple of funds that are starting to come out that have realized that there's a sweet spot in a film that costs, say, five to 10 million if it hits. Because if it hits everybody makes money off of that film and so I'm hopeful that's the beginning of [00:30:40] maybe some swing back that they're realizing it's gone a little too far the other way and You're not gonna get any anything fresh or you know, and I said to Roger I'm like look because he was like, what do you think about Sam?
[00:30:54] Cris: I got I'm hopeful it doesn't die You know, I'm hopeful that this is a pendulum and you look at [00:31:00] parasite or you look at everything everywhere all at once. Those give me hope.
[00:31:04] Oren: And they did really well.
[00:31:05] Cris: Both of them. Yeah. That's what I mean. They didn't cost much and they did really well. Yeah. One of which was not even in English.
[00:31:12] Oren: Yeah. You know. I have hope for it. I think it's a pendulum. I mean, I think that we, we did go through something similar in the eighties. I think there [00:31:20] was a pendulum swing towards franchises and action films and blockbusters. And now, of course, now we look back on them with nostalgia, but at the time, like a lot of that stuff was considered pretty vapid.
[00:31:32] Oren: And I'm not talking about the Indiana Jones, I mean Raiders of the Lost Ark was nominated for 10 Oscars or something, but you know, people look back now on Schwarzenegger movies from the [00:31:40] eighties, like Commando or something with rose tinted glasses of nostalgia. But at the time, like that movie is kind of bad and dumb.
[00:31:47] Cris: That movie was made for. Twelve year olds, and I know because I went to it when I was that age, with my friend Victor, who was like, we gotta go see Commando, and I'm like, okay, you know, Predator,
[00:31:57] Oren: went to go see it. Now Predator, I love. But, and now, [00:32:00] and the thing that people don't realize is that, that lens of nostalgia moves with us.
[00:32:06] Oren: In time, like it's just a, it's just a human phenomenon. And so it feels now that we are inundated with vapid superhero action blockbuster stuff in that in 30 [00:32:20] years, I think people will look back on quite fondly because this cycle just, it just repeats itself and people will look back on the original.
[00:32:28] Oren: Avengers movies and Iron Man and all that stuff and be like, ah, yeah, I, honestly, that's already kind of happening. Like people compare Marvel movies now to the first round and are like, uh, [00:32:40] nothing can top the first Iron Man and Captain America. Like the original ones are the best and there is something, there's something to it, but really I think it's nostalgia.
[00:32:49] Oren: It's just, people are responding to that. And I do think the pendulum will swing. I do think it will swing. And we have
[00:32:53] Cris: a very stark or very real. What you're saying, the nostalgia thing, look what happened with [00:33:00] Top Gun Maverick. Yeah. Now I went to Top Gun Maverick with. Two, two of my friends who are two young filmmakers, one's 25, one's 25.
[00:33:08] Cris: And so it was funny because one of them called me up and was like, I've never seen the original. I go, oh, just watch a recap, you know, cause like at this point he had no time to watch Top Gun. But that movie has a great deal of nostalgia. [00:33:20] Attached to it. Yes. And patriotism. Yes. Nostalgia. Patriot. Patriotic.
[00:33:25] Cris: Nostalgia. Okay. Eighties. Patriotic.
[00:33:27] Oren: Nostalgia. Yeah.
[00:33:28] Cris: And I remember it. I remember going to it. I remember being sucked in by it. I remember Allie Kelly McGillis, which I am super upset wasn't in this film because I think there was shit going [00:33:40] on there when there was something
[00:33:41] Oren: shady. Yeah, there was something that went on.
[00:33:42] Oren: I don't remember. I read about
[00:33:44] Cris: it. He doesn't like older women in his film. I know Connelly is older, but she, you know, she aged better. In, in Hollywood terms, um, and I, and maybe, I don't know, maybe it had something to do with Tom too. Cause he looks, I mean, he's aged. I'm sorry, Tom, you have, [00:34:00]but not
[00:34:00] Oren: as much as, but he does not look like someone who's about to turn 60 or it has turned.
[00:34:04] Oren: I think he, no,
[00:34:05] Cris: he doesn't know. And I, and I get that. I'm just saying that relationship that was built in that film. I mean, they brought back. Who I love. I love the scene they, they had with Val Kilmer. But they brought back the guy who can't speak anymore. But they didn't bring back [00:34:20] Kelly McGillis. They could've brought
[00:34:21] Oren: back Kelly for a cameo.
[00:34:22] Oren: Just get, throw her a friggin bone here. I mean, come
[00:34:24] Cris: on. But I just, I remember leaving... The theater after that going, well, yeah, they tried to remake it. I don't feel that. I'm supposed to feel patriotic. And I'm like, but who was the enemy? Like they tried to make an enemy, but they also tried to not name one in this new one.
[00:34:39] Cris: And I
[00:34:39] Oren: see. [00:34:40] Okay. So for me, that worked, that worked for me because to me, the remake really isn't about that at all. It's about, it's a way more character driven thing, which the original is not at all, not at all, but mostly not. But this one is really. A character drama and, uh, the enemy, um, doesn't [00:35:00] matter because it's not about that.
[00:35:01] Oren: It's not about the rah rah patriotism of it. It's about Maverick accepting his place in the world and reconciling with his past and figuring out what his future is. Tale as old as time. That's what, that's why I love the new one. Yeah,
[00:35:16] Cris: but did he, did, did he reconcile [00:35:20] his place in the world? He didn't, he was supposed to be a teacher, you know, and then he
[00:35:23] Oren: didn't.
[00:35:24] Oren: Well, but in the, but by the, Well, no, but by the end of the film, the teacher was the detour on the way to him realizing what's really important because he starts the film completely self selfish and self obsessed and clinging to his past. Even [00:35:40] though he's past his expiration date, the teaching is the detour on the way to him realizing that his real role is not about teaching.
[00:35:47] Oren: It's about being a mentor and being a father figure to. Goose's son, and that's where he ends the film. And I don't know that I'll listen. I saw the movie four times in theaters, huge fan, loved it. Masterpiece. [00:36:00]
[00:36:00] Cris: No, it's okay. I'm just saying there's a lot of, there's a lot of nostalgia attached to that. And I think, you know, I'm, because I, Quite clearly remember the original one in the theater and everything else that went around it.
[00:36:13] Cris: And I'm, I saw this, Oh, we're playing football instead of volleyball. Oh,
[00:36:18] Oren: there's intentional. Yeah. Like [00:36:20] they
[00:36:20] Cris: had all of these winks and there was intentional things. And sometimes they felt. They felt put in there rather than the necessary fair, I guess. And so I was like, you don't, this is already a manipulative story.
[00:36:33] Cris: You don't need all of that for me, for my, for me, old, old person who saw original movie. And that's what it [00:36:40] felt like.
[00:36:40] Oren: Yeah, that's fair. Now, listen, I will say this. So for me, Top Gun Maverick is actually a great example of tentpole movie where you feel the heart on the page and it's. Not necessarily the writer specifically, but it's Tom and his history with the movie and the role and It's just [00:37:00]everybody involved like you really feel that this movie is saying something personal.
[00:37:03] Oren: It's a movie about somebody who is Still working his passion well beyond his expiration date and it's still good at it But the world is telling him to stop and that the younger gen, it's time for the younger [00:37:20] generation to take over. And he defiantly says no. And it is, it can be a metaphor for anything.
[00:37:26] Oren: The film industry. And the millennials. Well, I think it's Tom. I think it's Tom Cruise. It's Tom Cruise. And he's still out there jumping off of airplanes and stuff. And it's the film industry like that scene with, with Jon Hamm, where he's like, we're going to replace you with [00:37:40]drones. Your kind is done. And Tom Cruise is.
[00:37:42] Oren: Not yet. And then he delivers like the most epic action blockbuster in years. And because that this film has its heart on its sleeve, it made 2 billion and it's still making money in theaters. Now it's October and that doesn't happen anymore because movies that are content, they do a big [00:38:00] opening weekend and then they fizzle quick because people are just looking for the next piece of content.
[00:38:03] Oren: They're like, yum, pizza slice. Okay. I'm hungry again. What's next? Oh, hamburger. But then this is something people come back to. It's a nice steak. Yeah. Medium rare. And you come back to it, you come back to it and people keep, people are still going to the theaters to watch it. And I think there's something to learn [00:38:20] there for Hollywood and for execs that what separates, I don't know, the crimes of Dumbledore or whatever the latest.
[00:38:28] Oren: Harry Potter Fantastic Beasts was I don't even remember that made a decent amount of money, but it wasn't like a huge smash. And also it has zero like cultural impact. Nobody's talking about [00:38:40] Fantastic Beasts. I think probably most people aren't even aware there was a Fantastic Beasts movie this year. I saw it.
[00:38:44] Oren: And I think when it ended, I was like. I couldn't tell you a single thing that just happened in the movie I just finished. Why does that movie make 150 million and Top Gun Maverick makes 2 billion? I think that's the difference. Like, that's what separates a movie is that heart [00:39:00] and that dedication, not just in the script, but in the filmmaking.
[00:39:02] Oren: You can feel it in the filmmaking. They sent, they go, they went up in the jets and there's a tactile nature to it. All of it, it's all contributing. To it. And, uh, it does make me hopeful. That makes me hopeful. Everything everywhere, everywhere makes me hopeful. Smile makes me hopeful. Barbarian, the woman King, all this stuff makes me hopeful because these [00:39:20] movies are doing decently and they're doing enough to be profitable.
[00:39:23] Oren: And they weren't hugely expensive to produce audiences are showing us that like. They're out there it's a smaller audience but it's there and people like this is the thing people like going to the movies at the end of the day like people just like going to the movies it's a fun activity it's a fun communal activity i don't think
[00:39:38] Cris: it's going to say [00:39:40] i'm not a huge fan of horror films because i i personally don't find fun being scared and that's since i was a kid yeah but horror films and thrillers and comedies all i think are built for watching.
[00:39:54] Cris: In a theater, in a communal setting. No, I love laughing. So yes, I do find myself [00:40:00] alone laughing out loud, but I think oftentimes, you know, you're like when you see something, but if you saw it in a theater, it elevates that moment and all of a sudden it's contagious and you get the point. It's the same with scares.
[00:40:13] Cris: Yeah,
[00:40:14] Oren: a hundred percent, but I think it's the same with emotion too. Like it's the same with. Really successful emotional dramas, [00:40:20] it's not for everyone, and there's certain audiences that it's not for them, and that's okay, but I, yeah, I mean, I just, I don't think every movie needs to be for everyone, I think that's fine, as long as you scale the budget, you know what I mean?
[00:40:31] Oren: Yeah,
[00:40:32] Cris: I'm saying the communal Nature of film and theater, because my degree, my actual degrees are in theater, not a [00:40:40] master of fine arts and technical theater. So being a technical director and lighting and scene design, of course. Yeah, of course. What I do is a. As I've told many of my actor friends, it's a museum piece without you.
[00:40:52] Cris: Oh, you can do your job on an empty theater, on an empty stage. And then they'll tell me, yeah, but it's more fun to do with what you do. Oh, for sure. Oh, you know, no. And I'm [00:41:00] like, yeah, it all elevates. We all elevate each other's
[00:41:02] Oren: performance. I love that. I love filmmaking. What a
[00:41:06] Cris: fun thing. But and how just to go back to a little question is.
[00:41:10] Cris: How important is it for you to jive with the director as a DP? Oh,
[00:41:13] Oren: I mean, it's pretty much everything, honestly. It's pretty much everything. Because for me, the role of the DP is really, well, it's [00:41:20] twofold. There's a technical side of it, which is figuring out solutions to lighting and camera related questions that are raised by the script and needs and wants and so forth.
[00:41:31] Oren: And that's fun. That's part of it that's fun. But I think the main part, the main job of the DP, honestly, for me, is being [00:41:40] the director's kind of partner in crime, confidant, right hand person, psychiatrist, you know, diplomat, translator, like everything. And without that relationship, you're, you're kind of just pushing buttons.
[00:41:55] Oren: And that's not very fun for me. I like the [00:42:00] act of filmmaking and creation. And I think that just comes from everything we've already talked about. And my story and introduction to film and love of movies just as a viewer. And in addition to that, my lack of desire to be the head of the pack and the spearheader and the go getter.
[00:42:16] Oren: That's the director's job. And that's something I'm not good at and that's why I [00:42:20] want to direct because I don't enjoy that part of it. But what I do enjoy is helping make a film and helping tell a story and having a director who shares that vision and has a vision and has strong ideas and knows what they want and is able to.
[00:42:37] Oren: Navigate those things and then have us having us work [00:42:40] together to create that shared vision. That's the, that's really the only way to have a genuinely great experience making a film without that relationship. It falls apart very quickly and it becomes either boring, which is tolerable, but not ideal or worse.
[00:42:59] Oren: Actively [00:43:00] miserable, which nobody ever wants. Like the worst thing in the world is getting to set and being like, Oh my God. Okay. Five hours till lunch. All right. Now six more hours and I get to go home. And that's happened to me a few times. Thankfully, not anytime recently in years. It's been years and years since that's happened.
[00:43:18] Oren: But early on, there were some [00:43:20] experiences like that. And yeah, you really learn how important this exact, the answer to this question is. For building a satisfying and sustainable career is if you don't have this, that relationship and that feeling, I might as well be, I don't know, shooting corporate videos that shoot for eight hours a day or less [00:43:40] and don't require any.
[00:43:42] Oren: Particular taste or skill and I can just show up and push the buttons, like I said, and go home and live a life or I would just go into teaching or something. Yeah, it's not worth it. It's just not worth it. It's not worth the heartache and the stress and the hard work. If there isn't that partnership at the core of it with the director, it's [00:44:00] like everything and the other department heads, honestly, but the director one is the core one.
[00:44:05] Cris: On that. So like, how intentional are you about the projects you pick? Not just the director, but what the project is like, how important is it for you to jive with that project or that it says something that you're in tune with? Also,
[00:44:17] Oren: also very important. And that's not to say that every project [00:44:20] has to, I don't know, have some message or ulterior motive or higher meaning, though, that's always a good thing.
[00:44:28] Oren: That's something for me to connect to. Yeah, it is important in a general sense. For me to, for myself to work on projects that this sounds so [00:44:40] basic, but it's like, I just want to work on projects that I like, like that. I just like the film and I, and as a viewer that I will want to then watch it later and enjoy it.
[00:44:50] Oren: And then as a career cinematographer, I'll be able to look back on it in 30 years and say, Oh yeah, I'm proud of that one. I'm proud of that one. I'm happy to have my [00:45:00] name on that. Oh, that was a good film. Other people responded well to it. It found an audience. Yeah, all of those things are really important to me.
[00:45:06] Oren: Because, yeah, it kind of goes back to that same thing. It's like if you're not making something that you feel is contributing to the world, the art form, the history of film, the... Film landscape, [00:45:20] cinema, oeuvre, whatever. Why would I work this hard on this? Why would I do 12 hour days? Why would I not have a life during production and give up on all these things and stress myself out and gain weight because I have no self self control on set.
[00:45:33] Oren: And I just read the crafty table all the time and get out of shape. And all of these, why would I do that? If not to. [00:45:40] For a higher purpose. Yeah.
[00:45:42] Cris: What, what attracts you to a project?
[00:45:44] Oren: Great question. My agents ask me that all the time. But anyway, and my answer is unsatisfying because it's non specific. It's one of those.
[00:45:51] Oren: It's one of those things where you sort of know it when you see it, but, but there, there are specific things that I'm definitely attracted to morally complex [00:46:00] stories and morally ambiguous stories and complexity in general and layers. I'm a little bit less interested in stuff that's a little more surfacy, even if it's good, it's, there's.
[00:46:11] Oren: That's, it's tough for me to connect to stuff like that, that doesn't have some layer of complexity or contradiction or expectation subversion [00:46:20] or something. And then I do, visuals are very important to me. Like I pick projects that I think will be interesting visually or have the potential to be interesting visually.
[00:46:31] Oren: So I'm not particularly attracted to ones that don't tick that box. And, um. I think it, cause it is important for me to [00:46:40] work on things that I find challenging and engaging aesthetically and, and that push me aesthetically and, and, uh, technique or whatever it is like that is important. You don't want, you don't want to just show up to work and just plug and play.
[00:46:54] Oren: That's not, that's not fun or interesting. And, and then directors is the third one, just directors who [00:47:00] have, maybe even if the project is a little bit less interesting, it's worth it to work on it with a director who has personality in that. Approach and that mind and vision and wherewithal and intelligence and curiosity and all of those things.
[00:47:17] Oren: So I think between those, those three things, [00:47:20] a project maybe has to take two of the three for it to be worth it. That's what I, that's how, that's how I pick commercial projects too, is like commercial projects. I don't want to just take anything. Cause I don't want to, I don't want it to just feel like a boring day job.
[00:47:32] Oren: So a commercial project has to either to have two of the three. It's the three R's. The three R's are [00:47:40] rate, reel, and relationship. And a project has to tick two. So it either has to be a good rate, and a good relationship, a director that I want to work with. But maybe it's not a visually interesting project, and it's not going to go on my reel.
[00:47:55] Oren: Or maybe it is a visually interesting project, with a good director. [00:48:00] But the rate is low, but that's still worth taking and it's not worth taking a project only for the rate if it doesn't have at least one of the other two elements, not enough, not enough for me has to pass that bar. That's
[00:48:12] Cris: a very good thing you're doing for yourself.
[00:48:14] Cris: Yeah,
[00:48:15] Oren: I think so, too. Well, I think you just have to if I'm not intellectually stimulated by [00:48:20] this career and artistically stimulated by this career. Then it's, it's not fun. And I, and it should be fun because filmmaking is fun. It's play it's make believe it's all of these things. And I would also say if you're
[00:48:33] Cris: not having fun, it's going to
[00:48:34] Oren: show in the work.
[00:48:35] Oren: Oh, for sure. Absolutely. A hundred percent, a hundred percent. It goes back to the heart [00:48:40] thing. I think they're related. I think there's something connected.
[00:48:42] Cris: What? So you've recently worked with a fairly well known DP it's Greg, right? Is that how you pronounce his name? Yeah, Greg. Greg
[00:48:50] Oren: Fraser, some, some Australian that I met.
[00:48:52] Cris: Some Australian that you know, on, on a film that none of us have seen yet.
[00:48:56] Oren: Including myself, including both of us. Called True
[00:48:58] Cris: Love, but [00:49:00] yeah. So it's, it's an edit right now, correct? True
[00:49:02] Oren: Love? It is in the edit. It is in the edit and it does have a release date. You can look for it October 6th, 2023 in theaters.
[00:49:11] Oren: Get ready. So it's in a year. Yeah, it's in a year. A year from recording.
[00:49:15] Cris: Yeah. How did that come about? Because it's an interesting I don't think I've ever heard of a [00:49:20] codp, so tell me how, I mean, I'm sure they've happened. I just haven't noticed, but how did that happen? Cause you're working for. Somebody who's deeping Google.
[00:49:29] Cris: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Right. Working
[00:49:31] Oren: with, sorry. No, I mean it was interesting working with Exactly. Working with, yeah. Sorry. We were both working for, this is how it came about. This is why it came about. We were both working [00:49:40] for Gareth Edwards, the director, and Gareth is. He directed Rogue One, which is how he met Greg, and Godzilla, and then his first film was Monsters.
[00:49:49] Oren: And Gareth is just a genius. Like, he's one of these very rare directors, very rare, who he's like on the kind of [00:50:00] Spielberg, Cameron, Fincher level of, there's a very clear vision, a very specific taste, and can do everybody's job. But doesn't, he's not, he does not adhere to, or he doesn't fall into the trap that maybe some of those directors, at least their reputation that precedes them implies that they fall into, [00:50:20] he's a very collaborative, like extremely collaborative, very sweet person who has this vision, but also wants to bring a bunch of people in and to lift up that vision and contribute to it.
[00:50:32] Oren: And so our collaboration was related to that. The boring logistic reason is that Greg's schedule. [00:50:40] The result of it was really just a mind meld of all three of us. Gareth has a very specific vision for how he wants the project to look. And we'll get into this more when the film comes out. There's some amazing, the story behind how it was made is pretty, pretty incredible and very unique.
[00:50:57] Oren: The, but the, I guess the little tidbit that I [00:51:00] can mention that will eventually. Be more explored in more depth is that Gareth operated the camera for the shoot, which he also did on Rogue One, not on the whole shoot, but he does operate the camera. And of course, Monsters, his first film, he was the DP and the camera operator and the editor and the VFX artists, right?
[00:51:18] Oren: So this is just the kind of [00:51:20] guy he is. And so. He has such a clear vision for how the film was going to look and how he wanted to make the film and the operating part of it and all of this that both Greg and I's contribution was really support and support of that vision and just helping bring it to life.
[00:51:37] Oren: And so it was very collaborative because it was not, there [00:51:40] wasn't this division of your, the DP does this. And the director does this and it was a way more entwined and mixed together. And, and it was beautiful. Honestly, it was a beautiful collaboration. It was an unbelievable experience. And I can't wait.
[00:51:55] Oren: I can't wait to see the movie as a fan of film. And I can't wait for other [00:52:00]people to see the movie. And I can't wait for it to come out. And I can't wait to talk more about it and tell the story of how we made it and what went into it. Because it's really unique
[00:52:08] Cris: and special. Well, I can't wait and remember this tiny podcast when it comes out.
[00:52:14] Cris: Oh,
[00:52:14] Oren: absolutely. Any, and I wanna go on any, I wanna see it with you. Yeah. Oh yeah, me too. Oh, I'm gonna be there opening [00:52:20] night
[00:52:20] Cris: in theaters. I wanna, I wanna be there with you when you sit, so you, I can be like, oh my goodness. What'd you do there?
[00:52:25] Oren: Yeah, no. Yeah, exactly. We'll go see
[00:52:27] Cris: it. Yeah. So my film. Alone Girl, which I think you heard a little bit about that night we met.
[00:52:32] Cris: Yes, a little. Yeah. It's a coming of middle age story wrapped in an unromantic comedy. I love it. It's such a great pitch. I've taken the, yeah, [00:52:40] I've taken the rom com and turned it on its head. Yes. Fantastic. And part of this podcast is documenting my journey and part of that journey is having these conversations and learning things from everyone that I talk to as well on this journey.
[00:52:52] Cris: And so what advice might you give me as, cause you've been on several. Films already it's on your work as I plan to [00:53:00] make my film. What kind of advice do you have? And yes, I'm gonna be making shorty storyboards and shot lists and stuff. I'm just wondering what advice you have
[00:53:07] Oren: I have I have one piece of advice that is big picture and then I have one really small piece of Very specific piece of advice.
[00:53:15] Oren: I'll start with the big picture one. You already just touched on this but really To me, [00:53:20] it's impossible to undervalue prep and the prep, the Denny Villeneuve. I remember in some interview, Greg mentioned this about Dune, or I don't remember who it came from. This anecdote came from specifically, but Denny referred to the prep process on Dune as the dreaming, [00:53:40]uh, process.
[00:53:41] Oren: And that's, it's our time to dream about the movie. And I just think dreaming about the movie is really. It's not everything because the edit is huge in shaping the final form of story. So I don't want to underplay that. And then obviously production is its own thing. [00:54:00] I almost think production is the least.
[00:54:02] Oren: Especially on an indie film is maybe the least interesting part of making the film, because when you're on an indie and you're on a tight schedule, it has by the nature of those limitations, it has to become a little bit assembly line, just a little bit, you always have to leave room for spontaneity and [00:54:20] discovery and play and create and the act of creation, all of that is true, you have to leave room for it, but you're just constrained by schedule and that creates Uh, circumstance in which it's just, it overemphasizes the importance of the dreaming part of the film and not just thinking about it, but even using that time, [00:54:40] which is rare on Indies, but is really worth carving out to do test shoots and to try things out with your DP and with your costume designer and your set decorator.
[00:54:49] Oren: And Oh, you froze. I don't know if I'm still recording. We're good. We're good. No, you're good. You're good. And finding the time in prep. To play and to explore and to experiment and to try [00:55:00] things because it's, there's no stakes during that process. You're just. It's a pure act of play and on on indie films that time tends to be minimal and chipped away at quite frequently and you say, oh, we can prep it in three [00:55:20] weeks.
[00:55:20] Oren: What do we have to do? We got to get crew. We got to get equipment. We got to scout the locations. It's not enough. It's not enough time. It's too much, it's too much focus on logistics and it's not enough time to dream and to think about the movie and to explore what the movie is and to try things out visually.
[00:55:35] Oren: So to me, that's, that's so important. It's so important to [00:55:40] bring a camera to the location scouts. with ideally with something as close to the lens that you're going to shoot the film on as possible. It doesn't have to be the same one, but just something in that world and shoot footage on the scouts and use the scouts as an opportunity to look for shots and look for compositions.
[00:55:58] Oren: And the stuff that you [00:56:00] don't have time to do on the shoot day is the more of that stuff that you can do, the more thought out and confident and lived in the vision of the film will be when you actually get to making it. And a lot of the prep stuff you end up throwing out, which is good. That's a good, healthy part of the process.
[00:56:15] Oren: But in order, I think in order to do that, okay. So that's [00:56:20] the bigger picture one. It's like prep, having a DP on early in prep, experimenting with the DP, bringing a camera to the scouts, doing test shoots, doing lighting tests in whatever way you can, even if they're just at home, anything is contributes to this.
[00:56:35] Oren: The small piece of advice I have. is something that I picked up on, [00:56:40] on, on true love. And this has now stayed with me and I'm now obsessed with this. And this is not a new idea, but we did it on that film and it changed the way I looked at scheduling. So the approach is to start. On your, when you're shooting a scene, start on your closeups and then work your way out to the [00:57:00] wide, because what tends to happen when you do the quote, unquote, traditional method of shooting is you start with your wides and then you move into your closeups.
[00:57:09] Oren: But what happens inevitably, especially on an indie film, is you end up spending way too much time on the wide and you spend way too much time tweaking and perfecting it and doing too many takes. Not through anybody's [00:57:20] fault, just because you're figuring out the scene and the actors are figuring out the scene and everyone's figuring out what's going on that.
[00:57:25] Oren: By the time you get to the close ups, you're rushed. And you don't have enough time to get to the meat of the scene. And then in the edit, most of your scene is in the closeups or in the mediums or whatever it is. And your wides are used [00:57:40] pretty sparingly to get into a scene, get out of a scene, or maybe emphasize an action in the middle.
[00:57:45] Oren: But you never, unless you make a deliberate design choice to have a scene play out entirely in a wide, which is great, you're not going to spend a lot of time in those wides. And starting in the closeups allows you to. Not waste the [00:58:00] exploratory stage of the scene and actually get that stuff on in usable takes.
[00:58:05] Oren: And then in the edit, those are maybe the moments where the spontaneous, surprising, unexpected thing happened. And now you have it here instead of just in a wide where you can't really use it. That's a great piece of advice. So yeah, [00:58:20]
[00:58:21] Cris: I don't know if you have a question for me. I usually turn the tables.
[00:58:24] Cris: I'm hoping if you do, it's something I can answer
[00:58:26] Oren: short. I love a table turn. My, I guess my question that I'm always curious about is what does, as a director, what do you look for in a DP? What, when you're interviewing DPs for projects or when you're going to interview DPs for [00:58:40] whatever, what interests you?
[00:58:41] Oren: What tells you that this is the right person?
[00:58:44] Cris: I think it's, there's a couple of things in conversation with them. I can tell they're collaborative that it's a, it's an yes. And what if this, and then they. And I can tell that they're going to elevate whatever it is I have in my mind or I try to communicate.
[00:58:59] Cris: Cause [00:59:00] sometimes I may not know how, I mean, uh, I may know exactly what I want, but I might not know how we're going to achieve it because that's why I've brought the BP on. And the thing I love the most is someone, this is going to be a horrible answer. It was like through the whole answer. No, but the thing I love most.
[00:59:18] Cris: is being surprised by [00:59:20] that person or any artist, whether it's the costume designer, the, but with a DP, it's that willingness to have that conversation with me. And for them, hopefully my energy says, tell me at all, even if it sounds dumb, because whatever you think sounds dumb might be the thing I'm waiting to hear.[00:59:40]
[00:59:40] Cris: There's a vulnerability. To both of us that we're willing to collaborate with. That's what I look for the most. And then when I see they're real, it's also, I can tell they're being brave in the way they're shooting, which I watched a few of your shorts. You're very, you're very intentional, which I loved seeing your, and their shots are like, Oh, that was interesting.
[00:59:59] Cris: I wonder if [01:00:00] that
[01:00:00] Oren: was good. Like, Oh, that is important to me, actually. Is to be brave in Greg has this great thing that he says that I have stolen, which is if I'm not, if there isn't an element of a project that scares me, I don't have an interest in doing it. There has to be something about it that [01:00:20] makes me.
[01:00:21] Oren: Shudder in fear and anticipation and worry of I don't know how to how I'm going to do that or accomplish it. And it could be technical and it could be emotional and it could be something related to how the film is being made or where it's being made or anything. It could be anything, any aspect of the film, but something about it that instills a little bit of fear [01:00:40] and then fear is The motivator to being brave and to being bold and not, and not falling back on, on comfort and reliability because comfort and reliability is how you get dull looking movies that aren't particularly visually interesting, white bread of movies, [01:01:00]
[01:01:00] Cris: white bread instead of the.
[01:01:01] Oren: Yeah. Instead of the rye, the rye or their everything bagel, everything, everything bagel
[01:01:06] Cris: right now. You mentioned something that you've got coming up, but is there anything you want to tell us about that we should be keeping an eye out for?
[01:01:13] Oren: Yeah. True love October, 2023. Like I mentioned, I've got a couple other features [01:01:20] that I shot before true love.
[01:01:22] Oren: That will hopefully be released sometime in the next year. They both had festival premieres this year and have not been picked up for distribution yet, but we are hopeful. One in particular that premiered at TIFF earlier last month or early in September called Fixation [01:01:40]that I'm really proud of and is a really cool and devilish little movie that, and I love the director.
[01:01:45] Oren: And She had such a bold vision for it. It was everything that we had talked about in terms of that collaboration. And, and it's a cool and weird move and definitely bold. And I can't wait for people to see it. Hopefully they'll get a chance to, so keep an eye out [01:02:00] for that fixation. I'm sure that'll come out before true love.
[01:02:03] Oren: So that'll probably be the next one to look out for. And then other than that, that's, yeah, that's pretty much it. I shot a short that's going to premiere online in November that I really love called Catalina that premiered it. It's a beautiful little queer short and we premiered at some festivals earlier this year and we shot it on [01:02:20] location in Catalina Island with a skeleton crew, no lights, one lens, super minimal, exercising minimalism and purity.
[01:02:28] Oren: of Approach. So that'll be, that'll premiere online. It's on short of the week in November at some point. That's another one to keep an eye out for because I'm really proud of that one. Awesome. That's
[01:02:38] Cris: it. I did, [01:02:40] I did watch the trailer for Catalina. It looks really beautiful. Oh, cool. Awesome. Yeah. I do my research,
[01:02:46] Oren: Warren.
[01:02:47] Oren: Listen, I'm very impressed because most people don't. And that's okay, but I love the extra mile. That's
[01:02:54] Cris: all right. Thank you so much, Oren. This has been wonderful. And it's been great just to get to know you a little bit more. And I think, [01:03:00] I don't know, I just love the, when two CIN files get together, our conversations.
[01:03:03] Oren: I mean, at some point, I don't know what podcasts are out there that do this, but I could probably just sit and talk for hours about. Any movie for on, on whoever's podcast is they want to, there's a movie chat podcast. I'm in whatever it is. Maybe we should launch one. I don't know.
[01:03:19] Cris: [01:03:20] We could, I'm game. I know how to do it.
[01:03:22] Cris: Yeah. The only problem is the edit. So it takes a long time to edit. It's okay. So all my Saturdays are taken up, but, but no, I really enjoy it. And this motivates me further with my film. That's why I love having, I'm going to be inspired the rest of the day because we had this chat.
[01:03:38] Oren: So that's so wonderful.[01:03:40]
[01:03:40] Oren: Yeah, I'm so happy
[01:03:41] Cris: to hear that. I feel this is a beautiful beginning to a friendship and thank you so much for coming on my podcast.
[01:03:48] Oren: Absolutely. It was a real pleasure. It was such a great chat. Thank you. Thank you for having me.
[01:03:52] Cris: Thank you so much for tuning in to Blissful Spinster. If any of these conversations are resonating with you, please subscribe on Apple Podcast, Google [01:04:00] Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
[01:04:02] Cris: You can find Blissful Spinster on Instagram and through our website BlissfulSpinster. com. Again, thanks so much for joining me on this journey, and until next week, go find your happy!