Meet, Nina Menkes! Nina lives in Los Angeles and is considered a cinematic feminist pioneer and one of America’s foremost independent filmmakers. Nina premiered her second documentary and fourth feature, BRAINWASHED: SEX-CAMERA-POWER at Sundance this year, and it’s how I discovered her and this amazing and impactful documentary which explores the sexual-politics of cinematic shot design.
Meet, Nina Menkes! Nina lives in Los Angeles and is considered a cinematic feminist pioneer and one of America’s foremost independent filmmakers. Nina’s work includes, the narrative films “Queen of Diamonds”, “The Bloody Child”, “The Great Sadness of Zohara”, “Magdalena Viraga”, and “Phantom Love”. Nina’s work has been shown widely in major international film festivals including Sundance, the Berlinale, Cannes, Locarno, AFI, BFI-London, the New York Film Festival to name a few. Nina’s honors include a Los Angeles Film Critics Association Award, a Guggenheim Fellowship, a Creative Capital Awardand a Berlinale FIPRESCI Prize for her first feature documentary MASSAKER. Most recently, Nina premiered her second documentary and fourth feature, BRAINWASHED: SEX-CAMERA-POWER at Sundance this year, and it’s how I discovered her and this amazing and impactful documentary which explores the sexual-politics of cinematic shot design. BRAINWASHED has screened widely at A-list festivals and was awarded the 2022 Female Empowerment Seal by the Critics’ Choice Association. But most importantly, it’s now being distributed by Kino Lorber. I was so happy to see BRAINWASHED receive a theatrical release, in Los Angeles & New York City to begin with, this little film that could with a powerful message has been held over due to demand & is also gaining screenings in other cities. I’ll leave the link to the film’s screening page in the show notes. Trust me, you want to head to the theatre and watch BRAINWASHED in a communal setting. I was thrilled when I saw that BRAINWASHED was going to play at my local art house theatre the Laemmle Royal, but the best part of the evening was getting to meet Nina after the screening and having her agree to chat with me on Blissful Spinster! Her time was limited but our chat is full of her insight and inspiration. I’m so excited to bring you my conversation with Nina!
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18_Nina Menkes - Independent Filmmaker & Director
[00:00:00] Cris: Hi, and welcome to Blissful Spinster. This week's guest is independent filmmaker and director Nina Menkes. Nina lives in Los Angeles and is considered a cinematic feminist pioneer, and one of America's foremost independent filmmakers. Nina's work includes the narrative films, Queen of Diamonds, The Bloody Child, The Great Sadness of Zahara Magdalena Viraga, and Phantom Love.
[00:00:24] Nina's work has been shown widely in major international film festivals. Including Sundance, the Berlinale Cannes, AFI, BFI-London, and the New York Film Festival. To name a few. Nina's honors include a Los Angeles Film Critics Association Award, a Guggenheim Fellowship, a Creative Capital Award, and a Berlinale FIPRESCI Prize for her first feature documentary massacre.
[00:00:50] Most recently, Nina's premiered her second documentary and fourth feature film Brainwashed: Sex-Camera-Power at Sundance this year, [00:01:00] and it's how I discovered her and this amazing and impactful documentary which explores the sexual politics of cinematic shot design. Brainwashed has screened widely at a-list festivals and was awarded the 2022 Female Empowerment Seal by the Critics Choice Association.
[00:01:18] But most important, it's now being distributed by Kino Lorber. I was so happy to see Brainwashed receive a limited theatrical release in both Los Angeles and New York City, and amazingly due to the demand, this little film that could with a powerful message has been seeing in both places, it's been held over.
[00:01:37] And not only that, it's also gaining screenings in other cities. I'll leave the link to the film screening page in the show notes. Trust me, you're gonna want head to the theater to watch brainwashed in a communal setting. I was thrilled when I saw that Brainwashed was gonna be playing at my local art house theater, the Laemmle Royal.
[00:01:57] But the best part of the evening was getting [00:02:00] to meet Nina after the screening and having her agree to chat with me on Blissful Spinster. Her time was limited, but our chat was full of her insight and inspiration. I am so excited to bring in my conversation with Nina, so however you found this podcast, thank you for tuning in, and please enjoy this week's episode.
[00:02:20] Hi Nina. How are you doing? Hey.
[00:02:22] Nina: Hi. It was great to meet you the other night at the screening.
[00:02:26] Cris: Yeah. I was so excited to get to meet you cuz I'd seen your film at Sundance. So I made a point to go to your screening and it's just wonderful. Oh,
[00:02:34] Nina: so you saw the uh, when it was online, unfortunately, because Yeah, Covid.
[00:02:39] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:02:40] Cris: And what's interesting is it was a completely different experience in the theater that was, cuz it was almost packed that night. Yeah. And to feel. The energy at certain points you were making with a group of people Wow. Was so much more impactful. Wow. I don't know if you have
[00:02:57] Nina: heard that before.
[00:02:58] I have heard it, [00:03:00] and it bums me out, you know, because, you know, Sundance, our big premier, um, instead of stealing the audience, There and we've had people come up to us at screenings, like literally weeping, crying, like women literally crying, you know, and, and having it be, you know, on a little screen at home.
[00:03:20] It, it's, I mean, I'm not, I'm sure I'm not the only one who was sad about that. You know, you get so excited that you get your film into Sundance, you know, And then like,
[00:03:28] Cris: no, no. I mean, I was excited cause it was gonna be my first Sundance to go, Oh. Cause I'm. Yeah. Kinda get my own feature film off the ground and my producer's like, We should go.
[00:03:36] Yeah. To try and make connections. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it was, I was just really impressed when I saw it and then when I was like, Oh, there's a chance to see it in the theater, I got really excited. It happened to be, I literally lived two blocks down from there, . Oh wow. Okay. Perfect. So how did your journey into film begin?
[00:03:53] Because I imagine where it's ended up wasn't necessarily what you thought when you first started .
[00:03:57] Nina: I, when I was a teenager, I [00:04:00] was, Still photographer. I started taking pictures as a teenager and I learned how to, um, develop pictures in a dark room, you know, which is now completely obsolete. But, you know, back then we actually moved the chemicals around and you had the, that whole thing.
[00:04:15] And I also was a dancer as a teenager and I did choreography and dance in high school. So I sort of learned how movement. Connects to sound, you know, in a, in a theatrical kind of situation. And then I had the photography element, and I also grew up in a house where my mom was into youngin psychoanalysis.
[00:04:41] She, she had an analyst and so she was always saying, Write down your dreams. Write down your dreams. I got very, Seeped in my own dreams because all you, if you just start writing 'em down, you remember them more and more and um, they say what you, water grows, You know? So it was like, waterings, your dreams grow.[00:05:00]
[00:05:00] And when I got into the UCLA film school, I felt so excited because it was like all of these diverse things that, that were part of me, you know, like dream worlds and movement and sound and photography. They all came together in film and I just. And I started making films at the UCLA film school and I, never stopped.
[00:05:24] So, uh, despite unbelievable obstacles, I've never stopped. That's so
[00:05:28] Cris: cool. So, and why directing Cuz you pro, I don't know if you went in thinking you were a director, cuz I know in film school for undergrad, you. Don't really have a, a slot until you choose
[00:05:36] Nina: air. Well, um, the, yeah, I was more than a director. I was like producer, director, d o p, and editor
[00:05:44] So I did everything. I mean, I was really the Kent essential independent filmmaker from day one. Cool. You know, and at ucla, what they had, they had this thing called Project one. I think it's changed now, but you know, when I went there, they had Project one, Project two, Project [00:06:00]three thesis. Um, so basically the whole.
[00:06:03] Curriculum was just making films and the very first film that you make is on Super eight. And usually most people, they do shoot their own film and they direct it and they produce it and they, and you have to cut it and you have to do everything. Some people, I guess get someone to help them with the shooting, but I had this photography background, so I had a really.
[00:06:24] Love of shooting anyway, and I just found that I loved all of it. I loved shooting, I loved editing. I loved editing the picture. I loved editing the sound. I loved creating the dream worlds, and I, I just loved it so much. So I never really changed my way of shooting from that super eight moment in a way I kept, I mean, I slightly expanded, but.
[00:06:48] That much, you know? So brainwashed was the biggest production that I've done. And of course cuz I'm in it, I couldn't shoot it. Um, and it's a documentary. It's completely different than my other [00:07:00] films. But all of my other films, I, I kept control of everything. Which I
[00:07:05] Cris: really like. Yeah. For my short films, I've done a lot.
[00:07:08] I didn't go to film school, I went to theater, so I studied, I've got, I've got two degrees in, in technical theater and in creative writing. Oh, cool. I never wanted to be in front of the camera. .
[00:07:17] Nina: Yeah. Something I never wanted either. I was just like, anything but the, I'll do everything, but not that. Yeah. But then I ended up being in front of the camera for brain.
[00:07:27] But that wasn't really, not, not pre-planned. It kind of happened. Yeah. But I think,
[00:07:32] Cris: I mean, it was interesting cuz when I first started seeing it, cause I, I, I've very rarely seen a documentary that had a lecture like Yeah. Near the throughline. And I was like, I kind of, I really liked it. Especially when you went to some of the younger audience Yeah.
[00:07:44] Or the film school. Were those students
[00:07:46] Nina: of yours? Yes. Some were students, some were faculty, some were Okay. Just random people who came. Yeah. . Yeah. To
[00:07:54] Cris: hear them, them realize how much we've all been affected, you know, Cuz they're [00:08:00] kind of us. Yeah. You know the audience. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so it was, it was a really effective way to do it.
[00:08:05] Yeah. Oh, thank you. I like that you chose to be on camera, I guess is what I'm saying. Ok. So what was your, your light bulb. With your, what you talk about in Brain Watch was really about, you know, the effect of the male gays on how we all. Even make our films, the framing and the, the language with which we know the visual language.
[00:08:23] Yeah, Yeah. Well,
[00:08:25] Nina: I don't think I had a light bulb moment per se. I mean, for whatever reason, and I'm, I'm not sure why. Um, it could be because I grew up without a television. My mother was against television, so we didn't have one. So for whatever reason, I was really always aware, you know, when I would see women on the screen, you know, in this highly objectified way, even though it was normalized in cinema, I.
[00:08:50] Noticed it very acutely, and this is like long before I read Laura Malvie or Judith Butler or you know, any of these people, um, [00:09:00] who were talking about it. So I just noticed it because I had an intuitive, um, revulsion for it actually. And when I shot my own films, I, I went against that way of. Without having a theoretical background or anything, it was just intuitive on my part.
[00:09:16] So I didn't really have that light bulb moment. It was really something that, that I was always aware of and always bothered me and always worked against in my own filmmaking and worked against in my teaching. And then when I was introduced relatively late in my filmmaking, like after. Third film actually, the, the way that it happened is that I was teaching at USC film school and um, a professor in the critical study side asked me to co-teach a class with her.
[00:09:45] She wanted a production person and then and her to be together teaching. And I had never really learned about all these people like Laura MoVI and Juth Butler and Bell Hooks. And you know, there's a [00:10:00] long list of these people who are very influential. But they're mainly, you don't necessarily hear about them if you're a production student at film school, unless you seek it out and you seek out and you decide to go take a feminist theory class over in the critical studies.
[00:10:16] Side. Yeah. Which is a, you know, something that most people actually don't do. Um, I didn't do it till I was asked to co-teach the class, but then I felt, I felt like a student in the class cuz I was gobbling up these, um, essays and, and readings and I really had my mind blown. And so it gave me a language and a way of talking.
[00:10:37] About things that I had felt before, and I took that back to my production students and that's how the lecture started. You know? And I feel like brainwashed sort of in a way has that same effect. That it's sort of like people have felt these things, they kind of know it on some subliminal level, but most people.
[00:10:57] Not everyone, of course, but most people haven't [00:11:00] actually confronted the fact that this system of shot design is fairly pervasive through history, through the cannon, with all these masterpieces, you know? Um, and so it's kind of like a wake up moment for people seeing the film, and it was even a wake up moment for me making the film.
[00:11:18] I already knew about it. You know, I have read all these theorists. I have been making films for years in a way that goes against the grain, but the process of making the film of sifting through 600 film clips to call the 175 film clips that we use, it still was shocking to me how often the same system is used in films, even films.
[00:11:43] Love or films that I love, like let's say Metropolis, I had completely forgotten about that Uber male gay sequence of Metropolis. I mean, I love Metropolis. I still love Metropolis, but there it is. Mm-hmm. , you know, it's the same system of looking. Yeah.
[00:11:57] Cris: I mean I was, It was interesting. I, when I watched [00:12:00] it at Sundance for the Sundance, the first time I watched it, I had this real interesting.
[00:12:05] Moment where I remembered I loved Blade Runner when I was a kid. Yeah. And I wanna say it was three years ago, maybe three, four years ago, um, American Cinema Tech did a remastered in the Egyptian. Of Blade Runner. Yeah. And had one of the actors there. Um, and I'm watching it and all of a sudden it got to that scene.
[00:12:25] Yeah. Which I think you, you have a clip of the one with Robin Wright where it, it's really cringy and really rapy. Yeah. It's like energy. And I had this visceral reaction to it going, How do I still like this film? Yeah. This is, Did they not? This is the man who made the, And Louise, what is he doing? You know, , because it's the same director.
[00:12:44] Right. I. This is so profoundly true. Yeah. You know, how much in the ether it's been and that not only men are, have been brainwashed or just Absolutely, Absolutely. Whatever, but we all have, and it's, [00:13:00] it's profound. Um, I, I'm happy that film theory or, uh, Professor grabbed you . Yeah, I know. Yeah. Um, but so yeah, you have 175 examples in the film.
[00:13:13] Yeah. The totality of. It was just astounding. Yeah. What do, what do you hope filmmakers take away from, from this documentary when they see
[00:13:21] Nina: it? I just think it's, it's one of these things that, um, I mean, I've heard from a lot of people that they're shocked when they see it. You know? I mean, I remember, I've heard about, I've heard this from people who are not in the field of film, but I've also heard it from people who are absolutely in the field of film and who never.
[00:13:40] Are shocked when you see the cumulation of all those clips of Aless films and you realize how consistent that visual language is that serves to objectify and disempower women. It's kind of shocking. I say in the film, and I'll repeat it here. I'm not the sex police if you're a heterosexual man. [00:14:00] And you wanna photograph some woman's dairy air, You know, I'm not saying don't do it.
[00:14:05] I'm just pointing out that a great majority of the films that we've seen, and a great majority of the cinematic canon contains the body of the woman in the object position and contains these, these strategies that keep women in the object position, even if they're a protagonist of the film. And, and I think that's pretty shocking to people.
[00:14:29] inside and outside the film, uh, uh, world, and that by inside the film world, I mean, you know, people who are like ma who actively make films all day long. It's, I mean, I didn't know how people would react, but you know, we were invited to all of the world's top film festivals. You know, the Sundance, Berlin.
[00:14:48] CPH Docs, Carla v very Iva, all the big documentary film festival. So it, it was clear to us that this is an important, you know, urgent, even urgent and [00:15:00] relevant movie. Yeah. How
[00:15:01] Cris: has making this documentary, like, has it changed you, Has it taught you something? Has your journey through
[00:15:08] Nina: it? Um, well I think I'm a person, as I said that, you know, first of all had an intuitive revulsion for this way of filming and made all my films in a very different way, my own films.
[00:15:19] I later read these film theorists and I understood what they were saying and they, I would go to movies and I would be able to identify these kind of strategies because I was very aware of them and they bothered. Nevertheless, you know, it did affect me and it affected me, I think, in a positive way, that I'm less susceptible to these subliminal messages that, that, that are floating around that, you know, your only importance as a woman is how you look.
[00:15:49] Mm-hmm. , we're just bombarded with that all the time. It's very hard and it, it made me aware of how that poison is sitting. My bloodstream. Um, and, and [00:16:00] hopefully, um, some of it maybe came out through the process of consciousness.
[00:16:04] Cris: What was interesting is when I was watching it, whenever they sh they, the camera came to you watching one of those clips.
[00:16:11] I don't know if you saw this in yourself, but you are like completely, like, I can tell there's this energy about you going, Oh my God, I gotta watch this again. . Yeah.
[00:16:21] Nina: And it was like, it
[00:16:21] Cris: was like, I was like, Oh yeah, I feel that way too. You know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was super interesting. My, So my film alone girl is a coming, a middle-aged story wrapped in an unromantic comedy.
[00:16:35] Okay. And I've taken the rocom and turned in on its head. Um, and I'm wondering what advice you might have since you've directed several films that I should keep in mind. When it comes to the cut and to shooting it? Well, I mean,
[00:16:48] Nina: I, I mean it's, you know, I can't sort of just give blanket advice, you know, out of the blue, but I mean, if I had to give blanket advice, I would just say, you know, try to believe in [00:17:00] your own inner vision and try to listen.
[00:17:03] Like I say in the film, as opposed to trying to copy what somebody else did or follow a rule that you heard about, try to, you know, really tune in to how you feel and, and what, how you see the scene and don't try to. Reproduce something you've seen
[00:17:23] Cris: before. Cool. And what about the anatomy of a scene? Cause you kind of mentioned that, and I've, I've had this conversation with dps and like editors and stuff, but I assume you're gonna have a different kind of talk about it because what, what should we be keeping in mind to, to move beyond the male gaze and, you know, language that, We've all kind of ingested
[00:17:44] Nina: my, I mean, my position is that the quote male gay is not something that's limited to men.
[00:17:53] Because Yeah, we as women, um, often see ourselves in other women in that way. The male gaze is [00:18:00] sort of this monolithic standard that has been reproduced, reproduced, reproduced. So how do you. Free of that. My personal suggestion, and this is not something that you can just hear once and then do, it's like a lifelong process, but my personal suggestion is to try, like I said, try to listen to what you really feel.
[00:18:22] Let's say you're, you pick up the camera and you just, you just want a close up on that woman's face, you know, because it just feels. And people are telling you, No, you have to show the whole room because no one knows where she is. And they'll be confused. Yeah, but I feel like I wanna be close on her face at this moment.
[00:18:44] So if I'm your teacher, I say go with that feeling. Don't go with logic. Don't go with what people tell you. You have to do. Go with that feeling inside that's telling you what that shot should be. .
[00:18:58] Cris: Um, and now, and one of the reasons [00:19:00] I've written this film is similar to you doing this film, which is, you know, it's in the ether how the framing Yeah.
[00:19:07] Affects how women are, are seen, Right. Or ab rectified I think storytelling as well. And I always call it the patriarchy with a big P. Yeah. That, like for hundreds of years, um, yeah, we've kind of been, uh, women have been. Basically told that our main objective in life should be to be in a relationship.
[00:19:25] Correct. And you can have other aspirations, but above all, Yeah, you should be in a relationship. Correct. And I think that has a very detrimental effect on us where we, from a very young age, from the first Disney film that's put in for us. We learned that our happiness is exter is exterior to ourselves.
[00:19:44] It's not something we have control over. And that leads to really toxic relationships. It leads to, you know, and I, I just wanna know what your thoughts kind of were on that. Yeah, I
[00:19:54] Nina: agree. I think, you know, it's, uh, being in a relationship is overrated. [00:20:00] I mean, and not to say, I mean, uh, you know, if you have a real understanding with someone, and it could in theory be a beautiful thing, I think that's fairly rare.
[00:20:10] And a lot of people are in relationships because they, they're afraid to be alone and they, they just fall into a relationship of two neuros meeting each. And it's, yeah, it's definitely pushed on women and it's definitely, you're definitely made to feel that you're a weirdo if you're not in a relationship.
[00:20:29] I'm not in a relationship. Mm-hmm. , unless it's with my cat. . Yeah. I have three.
[00:20:35] Cris: Um, but,
[00:20:36] Nina: you know, happiness is, um, Something that comes in many forms, and it's actually primarily interior. It, it doesn't have that much to do with exterior. So yeah, so that's what I'd say about that. Yeah.
[00:20:50] Cris: No, no, and that's, I just, I, I'm hoping to start giving a window into that so that women can start seeing themselves in that light, you know?[00:21:00]
[00:21:00] Oh, that's great. Do you, do you have any questions? or no, I usually ask, and you don't have to, I'm just saying.
[00:21:05] Nina: No, I'm, I mean, I'm really grateful that you saw the film at Sundance that you came and saw on the screen, and I hope we can tell your listeners to come out this weekend. Um, we had the amazing thing happen that this small film, it's a very small, low budget documentary.
[00:21:24] These things usually don't get held over, and it's been, the film has been such a success in la. They're holding the screening longer in New York and in LA it's now, it was in Glendale, now it's gonna be at at the Lumiere Music Hall in Beverly Hills. And then it'll be back at the Lemley. I think it's gonna go to North Hollywood as well.
[00:21:47] And like you said, it's much, much different to see it on the screen, so, Don't wait for streaming. Go to the theater. . True.
[00:21:55] Cris: Yeah. Go to the theater. It's such an excellent experience in the theater. Thank you so [00:22:00] much. Oh, thank you. Um, and I'll make sure I put all the information, um, about the film in the show notes and in the social media posts as well.
[00:22:08] And, uh, it's been wonderful meeting you. Same
[00:22:11] Nina: here, and thank you so much. Thank
[00:22:13] Cris: you so much for tuning into Bliss Wills, spinster. If any of these conversations are resonating with you, please subscribe on Apple Podcast, Google Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. You can find Bliss Will Spinster on Instagram and Twitter, and through our website, bliss wills spinster.com.
[00:22:27] Again, thanks so much for joining me on this journey, and until next week, go find your happy, happy.