Meet Joel Stoffer! Joel is an Actor. He lives in Los Angeles and is that rarity in the business a local, having grown up in the valley. Joel has been a professional actor for nearly 30 years and he’s portrayed everything from criminals, demons, and vampires to doctors, lawyers, and government agents. Most notably, you may have seen him in Marvel’s Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., as Enoch the Chronicom. And most recently, he was Eddie Munson’s uncle – Wayne Munson on season 4 of Stranger Things. But before things got strange for Joel, and even before he traveled to space and time, he and I worked together on a couple of my short films -- he was a misunderstood photographer in #nofilter which screened at the 2016 Cannes Short Film Corner and he was a clown gigolo in the award-winning clown western – Bozonova. I’m so excited to bring you my conversation with Joel, we chat about the actor/director relationship, the importance of trust when making a film, and about his time on Stranger Things. Connect with David on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/obleyo Connect with David on Twitter - https://twitter.com/obleyo Check out Joel in My Short Films at - Bozonova - https://vimeo.com/231040810 #nofilter - https://vimeo.com/153323966 Learn more about Cris and Blissful Spinster at - https://www.blissfulspinster.com
Joel Stoffer - Actor
[00:00:00] Hi, and welcome to Blissful Spinster. This week's guest is actor Joel Stoffer, Joel lives in Los Angeles. And is that rarity in the business, a local, having grown up in the valley, Joel has been a professional actor for nearly 30 years, and he's portrayed everything from criminals to demons, vampires, to doctors and lawyers and government agents.
[00:00:17] Most notably, you may have seen him on Marvel's Agents of Shield as Enoch, the Chronicom and most recently he was Eddie Munson's uncle Wayne Munson on season four Stranger Things, but before things got strange for Joel, and even before he traveled space in time, he and I worked together on a couple of my short films.
[00:00:35] He was a misunderstood photographer in hashtag no filter, which screened at the 2016 can short film corner. And he was a clown Jilo in the award-winning clown, Western Bo Innova. I'm so excited to bring you my conversation with. We chat about the actor director relationship, the importance of trust when making a film and about his time on stranger things.
[00:00:55] So, however you found this podcast. Thank you for tuning in and please enjoy [00:01:00]this week's episode. Hi Joel. Oh, hi Chris ladies and gentlemen. And those in between that was Joel acting for me. no, I, I don't act Chris. It's all very real. Oh, Joel Stoker. Thank you so much for doing. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm happy to be, uh, included in, in your venture.
[00:01:23] I'll tell you. I did, uh, break down. I'm gonna get a lot of flack for this. I, before Joel came on to my podcast, I hadn't actually watched stranger things since season one. Oh, I had stopped um, I'm gonna have to cut this off now. That's I can't, I didn't know. No, no, no, no. I, I did watch the entire season you're in, so.
[00:01:44] Oh, okay. Good. You're caught up. I, I, I B it, but no, I was excited to see that. And I, I think I told you, I didn't know you had done it. You thought you had told me, but I didn't know until I got a text from one of our mutual friends' sons, bill Pruitt's son, Jack, Joel, [00:02:00] Sofer, some on stranger things. And that was pretty exciting to get it that way.
[00:02:04] That guy that was in that short thing that you did. Yeah. He was very proud. He acted with you for half a second. At least his arm did that's right in hashtag no filter. He gave you, um, I believe you were eating if he was the. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you were eating cookies. Yeah. I remember that. So all night he was putting a plate then with cookies in front of you he did very well though.
[00:02:27] Yes. I have to say all that made it into that cut was his arm, his forearm. So and that's all we need. We joke about that, but yeah, I think he did. I think he might have been 18 or 19 when he did that. Yeah. Um, he's turning 24 very soon. Wow. So yeah, that was 20, 20 14. Yeah. 20, I wanna say 20 14, 20 15. Yeah.
[00:02:48] Maybe 2014. And I think the clown one was in 2015 and then Bo no was the next year. Yeah, but I was so like, I think when we met, I, I just felt a connection and I knew that you, you were just so talented in [00:03:00] my mind. Thank you. Um, and I've just loved being your friend and getting to see your journey too.
[00:03:07] Yeah. It's been, it's been an interesting ride and especially since then, cuz I had done some things prior to that. but I was in a bit of a, of a struggling place. I mean, I, I think with acting, I feel like I always am. I just, I always say I'm, I'm like at this stage, because I, now I have with agents of shield and stranger things and like I've gained a certain amount of following and, you know, I made somebody might recognize me on the street every once in a while.
[00:03:34] And I'm, and I'm like, I, I feel like the poorest, most famous person. I know , that's what I feel like, because like the money is it's not coming yet. It's like, I I've got these. Gigs under my belt. And, and there are times when the money's is lovely, but I still like when time goes by and I have to go back to my day job and until the next gig.
[00:03:56] And so I still feel like a struggling actor. It's a, it's a crazy [00:04:00] process, but I'm, I'm dedicated to it. I'm very dedicated to the, to the struggle. Yeah. I mean, I, I think we all struggle in our different, you know, I've got a day job trying to get my film made. Right? Yeah. I, I do, like when I look at you, I'm like, keep that struggle going, cuz something's gonna, you know, you see those little steps are happening for you, I think.
[00:04:19] And it's a Testament to your resilience. It's a Testament to your passion for what you do, but it's also, there is talent there, you know? And I think thank you. Yeah. I also think there are actors that I'll see, you know, that break out when they're young. Right. And I also think there's actors who grow into their look, even not just their talent, but their look there's more than a few there's yeah.
[00:04:40] There's a ma there's a maturing into your look for sure. And now your talent. Catches up to your look. Yeah. And I think that's kind of where you're at. I absolutely think that's true. Yeah. There's more than a few actors out there who have, have done very well later in life for whatever reason they, they found that.
[00:04:57] And, uh, I'm definitely, I'm committed to it [00:05:00] because I, I, on some level I have to believe that that spark is there and there's the potential for more good work for me. Yeah. And I've had some, I've had amazing support too. I'm, I'm really fortunate in that. Cuz there's a lot of actors who I think also very talented actors who maybe didn't have the support.
[00:05:18] And so couldn't keep it going. You know, I mean like reality kicks in life, kicks in and you have to, you have to pay the bills and do what you gotta do and you, and acting, isn't always an option. And, and I think there's a lot of talented people that, that had to say goodbye to it. And I had support, I have to acknowledge that from family and, and friends.
[00:05:38] And that, that gave me a little bit of leeway in terms of just getting on with this career of mine. Yeah. Cuz it doesn't, it never hits right away. I don't think. And people don't ne they'll see someone all of a sudden, like, even you, like, they'll say you get that next, you know, say Marvel universe explodes and they make the own Enoch film.
[00:05:57] Right. Or whatever. Right. and you [00:06:00] explode. Yeah. That was not an overnight success, regardless of what article is written about. definitely not, you know, definitely not. And I think even when you see these young, like I think even like the, the Chris Hemsworth and the Chris Evans is and all of them. Yeah. I bet if I had them on this podcast, They would tell me that it was 10 years before they got that audition.
[00:06:22] Absolutely. There's like a handful of people that you could say, like Leonardo DiCaprio and Tom cruise, like, like those are the only two that come to mind right now that started out as kids and were huge successes overnight. I mean, there's literally like two that I can think of that just doesn't really happen.
[00:06:40] yeah, you're right. I mean, it's very rare point being that it it's a long haul for. People who set out on this path. Were you aware of that when you started or did you like yeah. And how did you, cause you grew up here, right? So you would've had some access to, to knowing some of, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that I had an interesting experience when I was [00:07:00] in, in high school.
[00:07:00] My senior year, I did my, my dad. So this is crazy. My dad frequented a restaurant in marina Delray called the black whale, famous pretty well known restaurant. It had been around for years and we, we would go there all the time and my dad would go there and sit at the bar and eat dinner and have a drink.
[00:07:17] And he got to know some of the bartenders very well. And one of these bartenders was Bobby Masco, who I'll, I'll complete that story in a second. But so Bob and Resco was a writer and an actor. And my dad told him that I was interested in acting and, and somehow got Bobby to, to write this monologue for me, for the school, like arts festival that I, where I was going to school.
[00:07:41] And so I performed that. And then he took that monologue and he wrote it into a one act play, and we performed it at a theater, the Zephyr theater on Melrose, and then a, another theater as well at one point. But, and like I had, there were, there were casting directors that came, you know, and they [00:08:00] set, I set up meetings with them and agents and I had already decided I was going to college to study theater.
[00:08:06] And I thought that that was what I needed to do. And like, it was a bit of a, of a, you know, crossroads for me because I could have stayed. I could have said, you know, maybe I'll put college on hold and I'll see what doors open up here right now, because I've got these people saying they want me to, they think I can be doing this and this.
[00:08:22] I chose to go to college. I still, you know, I still think it was the right path, but who knows what could have launched from that? If I had said, if I decided to stay and, and pursue that, but anyway, Bobby Mosco. Went on to do crash. He wrote and produced with Paul Haggas and won an Oscar. And that was like, that was, and he's done a bunch of other stuff since then, but that was a crazy full circle.
[00:08:46] Moment. But anyway, I lost my, my, my point that I was trying to make, which I think is just that I had connections here and I, I knew after college, I needed to come back here and I had a friend who, whose [00:09:00] dad was directing a movie and got me my sag card and that kind of thing. And so that, that was having those connections was a big help.
[00:09:06] But so you grew up here in, in LA, right? Or in the valley, was it, or was it in the valley? Yeah. In Encino, like what was that like? Like how did you decide you wanted to be in it? Was it early on, was it through high school? Like, yeah, I mean, I kind of got the, the bug with it when I was in, I did it well at first did a play in grammar school, like every kid's in, in, in the school play.
[00:09:27] But then when I got to junior. My, the school that I was at was very focused on arts. And we, there was the, the senior play and they needed somebody younger to play like this little page boy kind of character. And they asked me to do it. And, and I was like, of course thrilled cuz nobody, none of the other kids, my age got asked and I, you know, I poured everything I possibly could into that role and loved it and just had so much fun doing it.
[00:09:58] And then was taking theater [00:10:00] classes from that point on. And, and I think I always on some level knew that it was the direction I wanted to go. So I, from the time I was 12, I would say that's cool. And did your, did, what did your dad like your parents? Were they in the movie industry or theater or was it Nope.
[00:10:16] You were you're the anomaly, I mean, on the anomaly. Yes. Cause so am I, that's why I said that. Yeah. Nobody in my family was into film and then I was like, yes, I wanna do that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I had growing up of course, in this town. I mean, you know, I had, uh, plenty of friends whose parents were involved in the industry and uh, so that kind of connection and that exposure, I think also drew me to a point for sure.
[00:10:42] What do you think it is about acting that attracted you? Because there's a whole myriad, you could have been interested in theater you're I know that your side business is designed. Yeah. Interior design. I mean, you could have been into set design. Sure. And I still am. Yeah. I love doing the design part and, and.
[00:10:57] The building part too, but yeah, with [00:11:00] acting it's, I, I, I can't really say for sure what it is other than like, it, it being a mostly insecure kind of socially floundering kid that I was, it was the thing that grounded me. It was the thing that like allowed me to kind of step outside of myself and, and not have to be, self-conscious not have to be worried about embarrassing myself because of something I said, or the way I looked or whatever.
[00:11:28] I could just, I didn't care how I looked when I was being an actor doing a role. I didn't care. And I, and I didn't care what I, if I was, I could just jump in and it was like a safe place. And instead of being mostly lost and scared, I mean, that's really what I re I mean, I, a lot of the time, that's what it felt like to be a kid.
[00:11:48] For me, it was, I, I was lost and scared a lot of the time and, and with acting, I wasn't, that's so interesting cuz I, you know, I did theater from middle school through high school as well. And I would've never [00:12:00] thought to jump on stage. Yeah. I was always, you know, like that's an interesting yeah. Dichotomy you were dealing with because I always was like, I need to recede and not call attention to myself.
[00:12:12] And I have, I have very few fears. One of them is stage Wright, which I've been working on my whole life. Sure. You know, even a group of people. Yeah. And, uh, I think I'm doing re reasonably well, attacking that, but I still would never put myself on stage to perform. And that's so interesting to me that you said that, you know?
[00:12:31] Yeah. I, I, I, I, I get that cuz of course when you're yeah, you're on stage or you're in front of a camera and you're drawing all that attention to yourself, you think that's where all of the fear would really be. That I think is probably more normal. And I definitely have some of that. I mean, I, I'm not saying I'm like completely, you know, I, I, I, I certainly, I have an awareness of okay.
[00:12:52] I'm being watched right now, but there's something that allows me to shift my focus. Onto the work and onto whatever it [00:13:00] is, the story that I need to tell and how I need to tell it that that frees me up as long as I've got a script. And I, I have a sense of, yeah. The story that I'm trying to tell with this character.
[00:13:10] And I can, that somehow grounds me instead of giving me that, that wide eyed, like, oh God, everybody's, you know, I mean, like I, you know, and, and I, if I get lost in front of a camera or on stage, like completely going in blind, I, I mean, like, that's why improv is hard for me. That's like a whole other thing, because then you, you don't really have a set of guidelines and, and, but instructions, you just, you're just like flying by the seat of your pants.
[00:13:38] That's a much harder thing. I, I can sometimes jump into that too, and it can be incredibly rewarding and, and fun, but it definitely, that scares me. Improv scares me more for sure. How important do you think the actor director relationship is? I think that it's it's, I think it's very important. I think it's, it's interesting cuz with, you know, with TV, the, you get the [00:14:00] job.
[00:14:00] I mean, and I think it's probably true with film too. You get the job because most of the time you don't have time to rehearse and stuff, but you get the job from the audition and they, they hire you because like you showed them what they needed to see for that role. And you did it the way they wanted it to be, whatever that was.
[00:14:17] They didn't even necessarily know what it was until you showed them. You know what I mean? And you come in and then they're just like, okay, do what you did. And they don't, you don't really, you know, you don't work with a director, you don't have a relationship with a director very much. You barely, I, I I've, you briefly meet the director and have an exchange and, and then you just go do your job and that's all they really want.
[00:14:37] They don't have time most of the time to, to work and rehearse and play and find stuff. And it's, I only got to do that. When I was on agents of shield, because I think when you're on a show for a while, you build up a, a, a character and you explore a lot of stuff in throughout the season as part of the process.
[00:14:58] And so you definitely work [00:15:00] more with directors when you're unraveling a, a, a part over a period of episodes. If it's just one episode or even two episodes, it's like you just go in and do it. Um, and I think that's true for a lot of film as well, but I mean, on that note, you still have to have, I think what they want is a professional to come in, be open, to collaborating, open, to working, having you don't wanna be too rigid in what you do.
[00:15:26] And I think giving, freeing yourself up for that relationship to happen in, in case it does with the director, then you're good. Doesn't always get to happen though. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, I'm just your journey as an actor in TV is certainly possibly. Divergent from say a feature film that you've got a more lead role in.
[00:15:48] Right, right. That you're gonna be working with with the director a little more, although I would say I would, I generally try to talk to all of my little parts even, you know, like not just the big ones, but yeah, absolutely. It, [00:16:00] you are also the person say with agents of shield, you know, the character better probably than those directors do that are coming in.
[00:16:06] Sure. Right? Yep. That's the sense I'm getting from what you were talking about, you know? Yes, exactly. That must be really interesting. I mean, I would assume the showrunner probably trust to a certain extent with the actors. Yeah. And I, I think absolutely. And that's why, that's why you get to be on a show for a long period of time.
[00:16:23] That's what I discovered. It's like you, if you keep bringing more to the role and the writers are inspired by what you bring, then they'll, they'll wanna keep writing for you as soon as you like walk, walk away in a sense from the role and don't, don't. Continue to bring interesting new inventive and inspired stuff, then they're like, eh, okay.
[00:16:45] I see. It's pretty much done. And, and so we're gonna write 'em out. you know what I mean? I got lucky because it was just so much fun to play and, and, and it was a give and take between me and, and, and the writers and, and we just got to keep having fun. [00:17:00] It was really cool, but yeah, clearly to the point of just director, actor relationship, I, I don't mean to, you know, belittle, you know, that relationship in the sense, cuz of course having that collaboration and, and, and having communication and, and conversation about what.
[00:17:18] Happening in a production is essential between actor director and I'm working on a film right now that I'm gonna do in September. And we're rehearsing and talking about the script and, and breaking down history and moments within each scene. And, and that when you get a chance to have that kind of interaction with a director, it's everything, it makes any project.
[00:17:41] I think that much more valuable and, and powerful resilience is really important in an actor's journey, right? Oh yeah. Yeah. It's huge because if you, you just have to be committed, you have to have a passion for it and know what it is [00:18:00] that you're striving to do. If you're, if you're just somebody who like comes in and says, I want to be famous or something, and that's your goal, it's probably not gonna, you're not gonna really enjoy.
[00:18:11] The stuff that comes because you're not gonna putting your focus on the right thing. But once you tap into that, once you kind of get bitten by that bug, as I said, then I think that for me anyway, is what has fed me and kept up my resilience and my determination, because it's just, there's really nothing else that I get this experience, this feeling from doing, and, and I want to, and I wanna find it over and over again to kind of becomes a little bit of a drug every time you get it.
[00:18:39] Yeah. Yeah. You gotta feed, you gotta feed it. I mean, I get the same thing when I show something and an audience laughs. That's something I've written, you know? Yeah. That's like, it makes me like, I need. Produce something new to, well, cuz it's all about, it's all about connection. I mean, it really is. And if you doing something that, that moves someone [00:19:00] else and, and gets them to feel something and then that's it.
[00:19:03] I mean, that's that, it's, it really breaks down to that simple of a thing. It's it's about that connection and, and making contact with people and you know, you do it in a, in a, in a pretty profound way. Mm-hmm, with art, with whether it's writing or acting and, and, and that's for me, that's what it's all about.
[00:19:19] So we, you and I met through friends because I had written a script. Yes. That was forr who listeners will have heard by now if they were listening in order, if not go back, it's a good episode. Right. um, um, but Adrian, I've known. For decades. Yeah. Um, and she's a very talented actress and I had written with a mutual friend of ours, which I didn't know until, until she had sent me your name, that we had bill in common.
[00:19:47] Right. But I'd written a script for her. And I said, who do you know that you have chemistry with? Because as you know, that script was very much about the end of a relationship. So [00:20:00] it was important for me that the, the two actors that were in it ha, already felt. Lived in, in that relationship. And so she was like, oh, I do have someone he's this is my friend Joel.
[00:20:12] And she sent me your reel. That's great. And the first, I don't know how many times you've had to redo your reel, but this particular reel had, I think it was a Bob Dylan. Oh, okay. Music video. You'd done. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it opened with a shot of your face. Yeah. And there was no dialogue. It was just you acting yeah.
[00:20:29] With no dialogue. Right. Which was intrinsic in what I'd written. Yeah. Because it was an artist, it was a photographer who was consistently working on his photographs, you know, on his computer. And. I didn't even, I don't even know if I watched the rest of your reel. I was like, oh, he's perfect. Cool. Like, it was just that immediate.
[00:20:48] I was like drawn to, to you. That's great. And when I mentioned it to bill and I said, this is him and he, and he looked like, I think he only watched a second of it. Cause he goes, I know him. It's [00:21:00] amazing. And it was hilarious. And I'm like, Well, text him you know, and I think he texted you before I did. Cuz you had the relationship.
[00:21:09] Yeah. And I was so happy. Yeah, because that was hashtag no filter. And then I wrote a character for you. Right, right. In Boza Nova. Yeah. Which was a little outside of your, your comfort zone. I think he'll get to that in a bit. Yeah. But it was, that was happening in a moment when you were having a dry spell.
[00:21:27] Talk to me a little bit about that, about getting that call and then. Because I just loved working with you and the, I think we had a very collaborative thing. You and I did talk about these characters and yeah. Having those moments. Yeah. Like I said, that was one of the several, many periods where I, I was even to the point where I was trying to figure out, I don't know if I can keep doing this acting thing I always want to, but I like, I'm not doing it.
[00:21:51] I'm not, I'm not actually working as a professional actor and I'm still trying to call myself one. And how is that? How does that doesn't equate to, [00:22:00] uh, much of a life, you know, and I have a wife and a kid and I'm like, what the hell am I doing? And so I, and, and I, I think I was venturing more into the design stuff and I, I was putting, acting a little bit on the back burner and to get the conversation with you about Bozen Nova was really awesome.
[00:22:19] I was like, oh wow, somebody wants to work with me. How amazing is that? That doesn't happen very often. And so I was, it was. As soon as I read the script, I was like, this is really fun and funny. And I I'm terrified to do this because I don't, I've never tried to be a clown or have any of these things go on, you know, in front of a camera, but I of course jumped on it because I, I wanted to, uh, a, it was really, I was inspired by it and, and B, it was like, I, I get, I'll get to call myself an actor for another few days.
[00:22:52] of shooting while we're doing this. It was cool. Cuz I expressly remember. And I remember where I was, cuz I was working at the time on, um, I think it was a [00:23:00] series for red bull on these break dancers when I was trying to get this up and going and I was spending my own money on it because the first fan of your work has to be you and you have to invest in yourself.
[00:23:11] Right. And I remember you expressing a little bit of trepidation. For trying for this character that I'd written. And I was like, no, no, no, I swear. I know exactly you can do it because what I wanted to do as you know, I, when you see it is, I mean that very first scene straight outta Dragnet. It's not sure the clown everyone thinks about, you know, totally.
[00:23:31] Yeah. Clearly we know that's spoilers. No, no. I mean, that's the very first scene. So at this point, I just think I, I had this vision and I knew you could do it. And I remember telling you that. And I just think, I think it's important as a director to remember that we're dealing with human beings who all come with their own, um, insecurities, their own, you know, and if you do see something in someone that they may not see as an actor, you have to support that and go, no, no, [00:24:00] no.
[00:24:00] You can see, I can see it so you can see it. Totally. I just loved the working relationship we had throughout that film. Absolutely, absolutely. Because what I found that helped me a lot was just in, in some of the, the clown moments and the moments, you know, the more intimate clown moments. Like when you're in a situation where like, you know, you just, you just have to dive in and make choices and you were helping to bolster my confidence in those choices.
[00:24:27] And that I think is essential. I think for any kind of performance to come out of, of a role, I mean, you have to, as an actor, you have to feel like that support is there and that there's trust. And I think you really helped like, establish that. So I got, I got to play and, and trust with what was with what was happening there.
[00:24:45] That's cool. So once you went kind of through that, I remember calling you and I think I was driving by the Fox lot. I don't know if you knew that. I, I remember that just visually and I, I called you about something, maybe a reshoot or something, cuz I know we did a couple [00:25:00]days. None of it made it into the film, but it was a thought I had when I was trying to figure out how to make it work in the edit.
[00:25:05] And you told me you'd gotten agents to shield. And what was that like? Because yeah, I, I always felt, and I'm not saying that Boza Nova got you agency, I'm just saying your juices had gotten sure. Going exactly. You were seeing yourself as an actor again. Well, well, the thing about the thing about, uh, the field gig was, you know, I think I had done, I think that, I think I, I did a role on this show.
[00:25:29] I had a guest star on, um, I think it was Rosewood. Yeah. And that happened. Yeah. Because it almost, you almost weren't able to do the first day of shoot for me. That was yeah, around the same time as Bo Innova. And, and so that to me was actually cuz that was like the first paying job in TV that I'd had for a while for a few years.
[00:25:48] And so doing Bo Innova and being able to focus on that, I, I felt like that kind of opened up for the, the Rosewood kick as, as minimal as that might have been, it was [00:26:00] like a little bit of a kickstart and then it, it, it was in 2017 in early 2017 and for agents of shield. And what was amazing about that is, is I had, I was also, again, enough time had gone by, was like a year had gone by and I hadn't gotten any activity going.
[00:26:20] And I was like, okay, I'm gonna put myself my focus back onto the design stuff. I'm gonna, I, that I've gotta try to make that business happen more and I'm gonna let go of acting again. And I did that. And then I literally, like, I remember meditating on that. Like really meditating on that. And like that next day I get a call saying you're going to work on agents of shield.
[00:26:44] And I said, oh, so I'm gonna, I I'm gonna audition for agents of shield. And they're like, no, they're offering you this role on agents of shield. It was an offer. I did not audition for it because it was literally gonna be at the end of season four, two minutes [00:27:00] on not even two minutes on screen. And in silhouette, it was the last episode of season four.
[00:27:06] And it was, and the character at that point was called silhouette had, man, I didn't even have a name. I didn't even have a name. And, and I was like, but they said, okay, but there's a chance. So you're gonna do this. It's just a one day guest star. Maybe you'll come back for one or two more episodes in season five.
[00:27:23] If it gets picked up for another. And I was like, sounds great. They're offering this to me. Sure. Why not? So I, I went in and I, you don't even see me. I didn't get any information. This was one of those situations where like the director, I mean, you know, I went up to the director. I said, what, can you tell me anything about the they're like, Nope, I got, I don't know anything about it.
[00:27:43] The director didn't even know anything about it. Just think men in black, that's what he said. And so that was it. And then I waited until like July of that year, when they announced, you know, that it got picked up and then sure enough, I get a call and they want me to be in a couple more [00:28:00] episodes. And then in that turned in the five episodes and then seven episodes.
[00:28:03] And it just, you know, went on from there. But it, it was one of those rare things that, like I said to myself, I need to embrace this and just trust. Don't try to force anything, just make choices. And I don't know if you can see in some of those early episodes that I, that I was in, I didn't know what I was doing.
[00:28:21] I didn't know, Enoch, I didn't know anything about, you know, what, who that guy was. And I was just winging it and then it slowly evolved because I, they were giving me more episodes to do, and it evolved for me. It evolved for the writers and it like finally became this, this sort of well rounded character, but it didn't start out that way.
[00:28:41] I would imagine that's the same story for a lot of different shows that have guest stars who end up becoming recurring. Right? Yeah. That cuz you can't hand a guest star, a fully formed. Character necessarily. No, exactly. So, but yeah, no, I did. I did watch the [00:29:00] be like, I watched that with your silhouette man one and I did.
[00:29:03] Yeah, I think I watched most of the next season. I'm not sure if I ever picked up the rest, cuz unfortunately I could get really busy, like being sent out of town for stuff and, but I do remember. Um, just being so excited and smiling when I saw you on TV. Yeah. Doing your stuff, you know, and yeah. Did it, does it make it mean more because you do know that there's these respite that you're like, I mean, agents of shield is pretty big.
[00:29:27] You mean the, does it mean more because there are moments when I'm not working. Yeah. Like that, you know how rare it is. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I, I cherish it because I know how, how rare it is for me. There's other actors, obviously who work all the time. And I think I'm sure they cherish it as well, but it's like, that's their job.
[00:29:47] They do it all the time. They're always busy and they, they, I would hope that they don't take it for grant. I know, I certainly don't. I, when I get a job, it's a moment that's religious for me because I know that it doesn't come [00:30:00] very often. So the aside from all of that, getting, you know, one of the reasons you got 'em is because you had auditioned years earlier for the casting director, right?
[00:30:08] Yeah. They remember, I remember you telling me that and yeah, that's an interesting aspect of it. That is a really, yeah. I mean, this is like a, it's such a great lesson in always be open to having a relationship with somebody in a sense. And don't ever like write anybody off because I, so I was living in my apartment in north Hollywood and this was in God, 90, 19 95.
[00:30:35] And my neighbor had in the house next door to the apartment building. I lived in, had a roommate for like six months, hardly anytime. And this was her name was Hannah Cooper. And, you know, I just, you know, we we'd say hello to each other. And we were friends. We'd hang out every once in a while. And that was it.
[00:30:52] And then she moved on and I never saw her again. And until like literally 20 years later, because [00:31:00] somehow my manager either submitted me or she just saw my picture in something. And she called me in, she was working at Sarah Finn's office on casting agents of shield. And she called me in for a role to audition for.
[00:31:16] And I think that was like in 2014, somewhere in 2015. And I, I did well with that one didn't book. It, she called me in for another role did well with that one again, didn't book it, but I was in her, you know, view. And, and so when they needed this person to play silhouetted, man, they looked at a bunch of, of reels that she had submitted to producers and she decided to stick mine in there.
[00:31:46] As one of the reels to submit to producers and, and without calling me in or anything. And then, so like, what was cool is I, when I got the job, I was sitting in the, the little coffee shop where we shot and I was sitting with Jeff Bell [00:32:00] and the producer on the show and, and he says, he says, you know, we looked at a bunch of tapes that Hannah gave us and yours came up and we were like, oh, that's the guy.
[00:32:10] And they didn't know why , but they just liked, for some reason they liked what I was doing in my reel that worked for them as silhouette man. And that was it. That's how it worked. And so, yeah, my relationship with Hannah Cooper, 20 years prior made. Come about, which is a crazy story, but it's also a good lesson, right?
[00:32:29] Yeah. It's uh, yeah, you never, you just never know. never be an asshole. exactly. I mean, never be an asshole is really what it comes down to. Did you audition for Wayne Linson or how did that come about inside your, yeah, that was actually one of my first self tape auditions because I, it was right after COVID started and, uh, doing self tapes and it was the, literally the only self tape that I booked up until one that I just did about three weeks [00:33:00] ago.
[00:33:00] I, uh, a small film that I, I just shot a couple of weeks back. Yeah. Yeah. It was a self tape. And I, I had auditioned for Carmen Cuba for stranger things. Prior to that, I actually auditioned for the role of the, the, I think it was Sergeant Sinclair or I can't remember anyway, they went a different way, but they called me for call me back for Wayne months and, and it worked.
[00:33:23] So what's the self tape like for you? It's a, it's a bit of there's downsides and, and, and upsides with self taping. The upside is that you get to really craft your performance in a way that you don't get to in an audition room. Like you, you, you can do multiple takes, you can rehearse it a ton of times, you set up the camera, you know, you, you work the angles and you, you, you hone it until you find what you really want.
[00:33:50] And what I found it actually is, is better for me is that less is more in a way . And I think I've learned, uh, more about, about being [00:34:00] still and about being, not trying to be perfect and, and just putting it out there. And so that's been a, I think, a really great process with the self tape for me. What you miss is the interaction in the room with casting and producers and getting immediate, uh, feedback and adjustments.
[00:34:21] And saying, Hey, try it this way. And, and then getting to interact with, with them in the room, I think is a big, I do miss that. I've never really liked the audition process. To be honest, it's not been a strong suit for me. And I think it's part of why I haven't booked a lot of stuff because I just, I get nervous in, in, in auditions, you know, when I'm doing the job and I'm on camera doing it, or I'm on stage, if it's play or whatever, I'm, I don't have to worry about whether or not I have the job.
[00:34:49] I can just do what I get to do. But when I'm worried about getting the job, it, it it's been a, a struggle for me. You know, I think other actors maybe are, are better at it. It's [00:35:00] not a natural process for me. Do you remember anything you specifically did for the Wayne Munson self tape that you think might have put you over?
[00:35:07] I think, you know, not necessarily. I mean, I think I just, I, I, I had the right look. I made choices. I, I, that, you know, it's not, like I said, if I do, this is going, you know, to somehow get the job. I, I, it was. You know, I just made choices for Wayne in that audition and, and they liked my look for the role. I think they wanted Wayne to be a little bit weathered.
[00:35:30] I have weathered skin and then they aged me even more. And the makeup artist like spent way more time than I would imagine. Cuz normally I'm like they do a little makeup and then I'm good. But there were layers of aging and weathering that she did on my skin. There you can, if you look close, you can see it.
[00:35:49] they? So yeah, so they like me physically, I think. And, and that's so much what it comes down to. I've had, I, I actually have had so many auditions that I've done, especially lately on tape where I've felt really good. My [00:36:00] wife who records my auditions with me and reads with me has loved them. We're maybe a little biased, but I felt really good about 'em my, my reps love the auditions that I'm putting out and I feel like I'm doing some of the best work on in auditions that I've done and not booked.
[00:36:15] For whatever reason and it's, and, and you, you know, but then something comes up and then you do book. And so it's just, it's so out of your hands and that's really what it, what it, you know, always comes back to is that you just do the work, you focus on the work, and then once you put it out there, the rest is out of your hands and there's nothing that's gonna make you get the job that you could have done differently, you know, unless you're, unless you just suck.
[00:36:40] But I mean, you know, , but I mean, I mean, if you're doing it well and you're, you're giving it your best truth as an actor in front of the camera, That's all you can do. There's nothing you can do differently to book that job. If I had, you know, if I looked to the left instead of to the [00:37:00] right in that moment, I mean, it's like, that's not what it's about.
[00:37:02] It's just, there's so many factors that are outta your head. Well, and I can only imagine you, the characters that you've been up for, and then you see them and you're, oh, that's why totally, because he's got red hair and yeah. Or whatever it is, you know, that's not you, you know? Yeah. So you're now a part of two very big franchises, which is Marvel.
[00:37:21] Right. And then you're part of this giant cultural phenomenon that the Duffer brothers have created stranger things. Yeah. Uh, incredibly, uh, grateful to, to have stumbled into those. I feel like that's how it happened. I just, I just got pretty lucky right place, right time and, and, and the right role that came up and to, you know, just to be a part of something that has a huge fan base.
[00:37:44] A lot of people watch that means I get to. I get to affect a lot of people with what I do and that it gets back to that connection thing. And that's you want people to see your work? And so I got these two amazing [00:38:00] productions to do that. That was that's a big deal. For me. Well, you got to do two scene, pretty long scenes with two of the young actors.
[00:38:07] Yeah. The woman who plays Nancy and yes, yes. NA Natalie Dyer. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and yeah, the Dustin engagement. Yeah. Character. Yeah. Um, what was that like for you? Cuz they're they seem to be really on it themselves. Like those are pretty powerful themes. Oh yeah. Both of you guys like acting. Yeah. Well, uh, yeah, it was, it was great.
[00:38:28] I've learned a lot from 'em because they're doing it at a very high level and they they've been doing it for several seasons. And so they are super confident and prepared and each moment because they just, they just know how to be that character in that moment. And that I'm always blown away by, um, you know, when I, especially when I see young talent doing it at that level, I'm just, I, I, you know, I can't help, but put myself like, God could I have done that when I was 17?
[00:38:58] You know, when I like Gaton [00:39:00] especially meanwhile, Natalie too, I didn't. I feel like I didn't get to know her very much. We had a, a very brief encounter, but I got to spend more time with Gaton and, and chat with him more. And what a, he's such a super smart kid and, you know, I mean, a kid, I say he's like he's 17 or whatever, but very well informed, really articulate and just like bringing the emotion, like on the, on the dime and the moments when, whenever it was it.
[00:39:28] Called for, I mean, and like genuine, like, nah, he's not faking it. He's just got the goods. He knows what to do. And, and he, and he's wearing his emotions on his sleeve and able to tap that he does it really well. And, and I, I was glad to get to play with him and get to know him a little bit. Well, yeah, he's on Broadway now.
[00:39:46] I think he just, yeah, he just he's on, um, dear Evan Hansen. I think I've watched a couple of interviews with him cuz they're, they're all over now, you know? Sure. The stranger kids on those things. I mean, he just seems like a really cool yeah, young man. Yeah. And I [00:40:00] can't wait to see what more he ends up doing.
[00:40:03] Um, same here. I think there's a, a, a movie I just saw a trailer for, or just some kind of advertisement for that. He's got coming out where he like a high school romcom kind of thing where, you know, he and this other actress are the leads and they're, you wouldn't imagine these two ever getting together.
[00:40:21] And then they do. And it's like, I think it's a really interesting storyline. I'm excited to see it. And just from what I saw of him in that, in those brief cuts, I'm sure is gonna be great. That's uh, interesting. Cuz when you said he's in a romcom, I was, I was like, I hope they didn't make him the best friend.
[00:40:36] No, because he, he has that, that, um, I would relate him to uh, a Jack Black kind of, uh, he can be a lead even though you don't see him not a traditional lead, but definitely has that potential. Yeah. That makes me happy. He's got a lead in something like that. Yeah. Um, yeah, I'm excited to see that. I just remember that scene in that.
[00:40:56] Was it like a rescue warehouse, whatever the, that you were [00:41:00] putting up the poster in it? Yeah, it was in the school, uh, gymnasium, the high school gymnasium that had been turned into a shelter. You were both, uh, emoting in like I, you made me cry. Yeah. You know, it's it was a powerful scene. I was, yeah. And it was about a character who is funny because I went to high school with everyone.
[00:41:20] Who's my age, senior, your age, you know, we all went to high school with an Eddie who was absolutely completely misunderstood totally because of the outward appearance that they gave. You know? And if you listen to interviews with anyone from Metallica or Def Leppard or any of those guys, they're so sweet.
[00:41:39] Yep. They just, yep. This was the music and the art they wanted to do, you know? Absolutely. And, um, I, I was friends with. I remember my friend Dean was just like that Eddie character. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, and that was nice to see. Yeah. You know, I, I think, uh, the writers and the other brothers, they really [00:42:00] created a character like that.
[00:42:02] Yeah. Just as you described, as somebody misunderstood misguided, maybe a troubled use. So they're really, they're struggling to find their identity, but they, and so they bury themselves in their hair and their whatever persona image that they need in high school to, to put out there. But underneath there's like this genius, really this kid who's got so much going on and so much, you know, depth and, and heart and compassion and empathy.
[00:42:27] And that I think was so telling of so many kids still today, so easy to relate to that guy. And, and that's why he's become such a favorite. And Joe Quinn, who I never got to. Sadly. I know I was like, I wanted a scene with you too. I know. But even in the beginning, like you leaving for work or whatever, just to connect you guys.
[00:42:47] It's okay. You know? Yeah. But I am hopeful you're in that last scene looking up at the sky. So I'm hopefully bring you back. I am very hopeful too. I mean, I, I actually it's, you know, normally I wouldn't even let myself go [00:43:00] there because, you know, I don't want to be set up for disappointment, but I gotta say it feels like it, it makes a lot of sense for Wayne to, to be back for in season five.
[00:43:11] I, I don't know. Nobody's contacted me about it. Of course. So I'm just speculating, but it feels like there's room for that to happen. Yeah. We'll see. Yeah. I got this hopeful feeling. I, I don't, I don't wanna set you up for disappointment either, but I do. Sure, sure. When you, when all of those people came out of the building to look up and they literally put the frame on you and me and GA come out.
[00:43:34] Yeah, yeah. Um, I was like, yeah, dusted. Yeah, Dustin. Yeah. I was like, Hmm. You know, like, because my heart went, like, I wonder if he's gonna be back I do wanna know more about you. You were so. Your character was a little bit mysterious in and of, of himself too. You know, he was going through this thing and nobody was gonna believe him yeah.
[00:43:54] About his nephew. But I just got this feeling. So who knows if it ha [00:44:00] if it happens, it happens. Yeah. I mean, it, it feels like there would be story for that because clearing Eddie's name, first of all, would be part of, I hope they deal with that in season five. Mm-hmm I hope they could. Yeah. Like clearing it, clearing his name with everyone else.
[00:44:15] Not yeah, exactly. Cause everybody thinks he's a murderer in the town of Hawkins. And so I would think that Wayne would be a part of that. Yeah. Happening, I would hope. And it's also tapping into that, which you and I I'm sure both remember D and D was thought of as a cult. Yeah. For quite a while. And was blamed for a lot of stuff back in the, um, late seventies and eighties.
[00:44:38] And it was part of the satanic panic, you know? Yeah. And. You, you would think that they're building up to that being dismantled as well with clearing Eddie, but also clearing like hellfire club. That stigma. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Changing that. I hope we'll see. Yeah. I don't know who, who knows what they've got in store really.
[00:44:58] I mean, they, from what I understand, they're [00:45:00] writing, they start writing in August. Cause I think they're on hiatus for July and then they, you know, so they, they would have episodes written. Enough, hopefully by like September, end of September, maybe to mm-hmm have a sense of, who's gonna be there beyond just the loop.
[00:45:16] I hope they're smart enough to include you. It'll keep me watching. Yeah. Hopefully, maybe they're listening to this podcast right now, maybe. And maybe someone, maybe someone can forward it to the dust letter. How, what is it? Cause I saw a picture of you working with them. Like it looked like they were directing you.
[00:45:33] Cause I think they directed the last episode. Right? Mm-hmm what was that like? They, yeah, they directed the first, uh, episode two that I did. And then, and episode nine, what was it like working with the Duffer brothers? They, they were awesome. They were great. They like, you get a sense when you work with somebody on a show, especially that big, there's so much for them to be thinking about at any given moment.
[00:45:53] I mean, there's. Gajillion things. And so like, I would expect, I mean, if it were me in that situation, I would be a [00:46:00] basket case. I'd be like, I don't there's. So like, how do you keep track of it all? You know, they're when you're running a show and they were like doing all of that. And at the same time able to like really take in a guest actor who comes on for it, you know, a few days, I mean, and talk to me and work with me and, and be present.
[00:46:20] And that's, that's a really, it's an amazing quality that I've been lucky enough to, to work with people who have that and including yourself. Oh, thank you. and, you know, so they, they were great. They were super, super, no, I mean that, that whole crew, everybody was great. Well, I can't imagine cuz they are each of those episodes, all, I think it was nine of 'em.
[00:46:39] Right? Almost all of them were over an hour. They, none of them had like a same exact time, but it was like watching nine movies basically. Right. But they also had these very. Disparate three, three or four different areas of story that characters were never intersecting yet their storylines were intersecting to [00:47:00] get to that finale.
[00:47:00] Yes. Yes. And it's a Testament to them that they figured out how to keep those strings going, how to weave that all together. Yeah. Yeah. And to have those pods of actors giving those performances, that also felt interconnected mm-hmm with the pods of actors that weren't, that they weren't connected with, which, and they had been, I, I think, I don't know if, if it happened this way in the, in I know the first season they were all connected, basically.
[00:47:27] Yeah. I'm assuming the others, they, they didn't really separate as much. So it was, it must have been a challenge. Like I, I wonder if that was part of the Duffer brothers putting a challenge in front of themselves? I think that it feels like, like in a way it was because I, you know, Yeah, they wanted from season one, they're all together in the town.
[00:47:46] And, and so to, to find something new and still make it interesting, they separated everybody. And that created a major challenge. Yeah. To try to figure out how to keep them all[00:48:00] involved in the same story. And, but they, yeah, I, I think they, they did it beautifully and used some movie magic and some science fiction to make it.
[00:48:11] and I thought that was yeah. A, a real credit to them to be able to figure out how to make that happen. Um, yeah. And, but I think my understanding is that season five is everybody's back and they, they have to, they have to save the world. Right. They have to save the world, basically. so changing gears a little bit to the film, I'm trying to get off the ground, a lone girl, which I will.
[00:48:33] Yes, I will. I know you'll. I mean, I've come close four times to getting the development fund. So that's been a little bit of a, yeah. Talk about, talk about ripping your heart out and stomping on it and then having to pick it back up and put it back in and find a way to move on. So a lone girl, it's, it's basically coming a middle-aged story wrapped in an unromantic comedy.
[00:48:52] So I've turned the romcom on its head. And of course there's a send up of that classic montage of date sequences in there. [00:49:00] Yeah. And one of them, I absolutely love. This character called Frank Lansing. Who, when I let you read an early version of the script, you immediately gravitated towards that character.
[00:49:12] Talk to me about that, cuz I, I, I wrote it with you in mind and I don't know if you knew that fully, but I somehow I, I guess I, I knew that no, I, I just, yeah, I, I just thought it, he, he was, uh, just a really interesting, very self-involved quirky, but funny guy and I, I, it just, uh, thought it, I thought it would be fun.
[00:49:32] Like you. A bead into somebody, you get line into somebody and, and then, oh, I gotta, I gotta explore that. And that's kind of what happened after. Yeah. , it'd be, it'd be fun. And is it fun, do you think for actors to find smaller characters like that, it's a straight up cameo type. There's a lot there, but it's not a giant character.
[00:49:51] Right. But do you find as an actor that those are really nice roles to fight into sure. As opposed to a lead, you know? Oh, absolutely. [00:50:00] Absolutely. They're I think that they're harder in, in a lot of ways to make real and, and memorable and have a fully developed person and present that history on a screen when you've only got a page or two of dialogue at best to work with it.
[00:50:15] It's very challenging to do that. And that's, I think what makes it fun and I. Done that more than I've done the leads I've gotten to do leads too. And I love doing that because then you do really get to see an arc and playing an arc to a character and a beginning, middle, and an end is a lot of fun too.
[00:50:33] But the smaller role is yeah. Is a big challenge and, and fun to do, to tap into and, and be able to say, oh, that's an interesting character that, that actor brought. To that moment of the film. So I was listening, um, I listened to an awful lot of podcasts, which is probably the progenitor to me starting my own podcast.
[00:50:53] um, yeah, but I was listening to one that the DGA does right around the academy awards. They did a, a panel with [00:51:00] all of the, the nominees, which included Spielberg and Paul Thomas Anderson and Jane Campion and the whole group. Right. And so the moderator asked about where they like to be when they're directing.
[00:51:12] And it was kind of a split, they were all adamant about where they chose to be, which was really interesting to me. And I like to listen to these things, especially when I'm hearing things like that, because. Still a developing director and like Paul Thomas Anderson was like, no, I like to be right by camera.
[00:51:29] And I know from reading Barry Levinson's book, he likes to be UN, like, he'll lie down under the camera. Mm-hmm to watch the act mm-hmm and Spielberg and camping were like, I like to be comfortable. I like to be sitting in the video village. Right. And I was just wondering for you as an actor, where do you prefer, do you get something from the director being close to you and watching your performance as opposed to them being far away?
[00:51:51] Um, yeah, that's an interesting thing. I think, you know, it's funny cuz when I did the, when I did Indiana Jones, I think Spielberg in [00:52:00] that was a little bit of both. He was, I remember he was at times in video village, we were in a, a sound stage, uh, at the universal lot. And he was in, you know, off of the set, watching the monitor and then there was a time when he came in and.
[00:52:13] Watching us working with, you know, with us in, on, on the set directly and next to camera. And so he did a little bit of both, but I would say for me it was it, I don't know that it really makes a, a difference. I mean, there's, there's, there is a difference to have the director next to the camera, for sure.
[00:52:30] As opposed to not be there, you, you cuz you, you know, you wanna have that connection and you, and, and it does feel somehow like you're being supported more when the director is there next to camera, for sure. But at the same time, there's such a big difference between playing a scene with someone, wherever you're on the set and what the camera sees and you as the director and as the actor too, you wanna know how it's framed and, and where, where the, the story is being told what, from whatever the actor is [00:53:00] doing, you wanna see how it's framed because.
[00:53:03] Defines so much of how the story is told. So I think it's, it's critical for a director to be able to have that monitor. I, I know directors that like to have a monitor, like next to camera, so that they're next to camera looking at a monitor and looking at the actor, performing on the set at the same time.
[00:53:23] And they get both of it. I think in terms of how it affects my performance. I don't think that there's a difference because I'm in the scene with whoever I'm I'm with and I'm playing that and that's all that I'm focused on. Yeah. Have you learned anything in an a as an actor that I should maybe keep in mind as, as a director when working with actors, is there stuff that I need to keep in mind as I'm starting to plot out how to film this or how to talk to actors about these scenes that helps you?
[00:53:55] Oh, wow. It's a great question. I'm just, I don't know exactly how to answer it. There's [00:54:00] there there's so many factors and. It can be so specific to each, each scene and each script in terms of, so are you talking about how as a director, how, what, the best way to communicate what that arc is? Yeah. In a scene for that scene?
[00:54:17] So much of it just happens for me anyway, as an actor, so much comes from when just being in, in the scene and playing it once, once you get the lines memorized and, and you have a sense of where you're coming from and, and, and what you're supposed to get to and what your objective is, and then be willing to let go of that objective, because you might go in a totally different direction, unless it's absolutely required for the story.
[00:54:42] You just, you get on the set. And so, you know, I was explaining this to my son. Who's 10, who also has an interest in acting for better or for worse. You know, you, you play the scene, you get the script and you work it through in your head as an actor and you rehearse it in however you work. And then you get on set and the [00:55:00] world is created for you.
[00:55:01] And that's why, you know, I, I was explaining to him how we have to put so much, give so much value to the crew and everybody else involved in making a, a movie or whatever it is because they create that world. And all you have to do is know your lines, walk into it and be in that and be in that moment.
[00:55:21] And it makes it so much easier. And so once you establish that you go in and you play. And you don't, you try your best to not have a preconceived notion of, or, or expectation of what is going to happen. Obviously, the story that needs to be told, so there are certain key elements that you, you need to achieve, but how you get to those elements, all those moments in between be willing to let anything.
[00:55:49] be willing to just explore and have your emotions, like ready to go in any direction as a, as an actor, because you don't know what might come, you know? Well, [00:56:00] I think that's the lesson you just said to the director is to be open to let your actors do that. Yeah, because I don't, I don't know. And you've done that.
[00:56:08] And so ISR, I'll be sitting there and you guys give me a performance and I'm just like, oh my God. You've basically, I think I write the script. That's. Right. Then the actors perform it for me, you know, and the crew and whatever, but it's right. It's all of a sudden I'm getting things performances that I never expected that have elevated what I wrote.
[00:56:31] Yeah. And then there's writing it again in the edit. Sure. So sure. So a movie or a film is written three times in my head. Yeah. That's a good way to look at. Absolutely. But I I'll tell you, I can't tell you how many times I was in, you know, editing Boza Nova and you, or Ari or say Chris, whoever, all of a sudden, I, I discovered a moment yeah.
[00:56:51] That you guys gave that was small. Yeah. So it's big in the sense of what I'm discovering. It was small at the time [00:57:00] on set. So it flew by right as you're trying to, but the camera caught captures it. The camera caught it and I was like, what a fantastic choice. And that's the shot and it might, and it's more than likely not what I would've said.
[00:57:14] Circle take on set. Sure. Right. So, yeah, no, that's great. I, I love this and I love talking like this. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's a great takeaway. It just, yeah. Trusting in each other as an actor, trust the director to, to know what they want, even if they don't know what they want. And then for the director to be able to give that the actor, that freedom to, to show the director, maybe what it is that they want.
[00:57:41] mm-hmm even if it's what they didn't expect. Yeah. You know, and yeah. To see what comes up that's um, That's so cool. So you've gotten to watch me evolve as an artist, you know, writer and a director. Yeah. When it comes to working with an actor, what do I do well, and what do you think I need to work on? And I'm being very vulnerable [00:58:00] here.
[00:58:00] You can be as, as whatever you want. I, I, my memories of when we last worked together, it was, I was in 2015 and I would say, they're all great because you, I think all the stuff we've been talking about, you already, you know, have a sense of, of, of what to do. I think if anything, there's, it's a little bit of a give and take in terms of what we were, what we've been talking about, giving the actor freedom to play and do all that stuff.
[00:58:26] And at the same time, finding when, as a director, you have to say, okay, this is what it's gonna be. And I need you to, I need you to play this. And so I would say to, to trust. Your instinct and vision. And then I'm just wondering it's because it is, you have to, as a director, you have to prepare it with a vision it's really, it's ultimately your vision in the long run.
[00:58:51] It's everybody, but it starts with you, especially as the writer director. And so you gotta have a lot of trust. You gotta have a lot of [00:59:00] confidence and you gotta bring that and know that the, the shots that you set up are, are gonna tell the best story in the best way. And, and so just to be able to trust that, I think, you know, and, and, and I only say that you had that in, in my experience, working with you, that was there.
[00:59:19] We could always work, work on that more. Yeah. You can always develop that. That would be it if that's, cuz you're also because you're not. And, and what's great about you, Chris is you're not so totally married to what you know, to what you're, what you're creating. You know, what you, the story you want to tell and you write this script, but if something comes up that makes it better, you're open to that.
[00:59:44] and I think that's essential. You have to have that. Yeah. I was just talking to a DP friend of mine yesterday. He said that the best thing a director can do is not assume they know everything. Yeah. Which I've never assumed. So , I don't think you're in danger for that. Well, and it, it is a really interesting [01:00:00] balance of both confidence and, and being open to, to finding new things.
[01:00:07] You have to have both, um, we've come to the fan question. I don't know if Jack refers to himself as a Joel Stoker fan, but he did text me. He did text me that you were in stranger things. So he was clearly watching. Cool. And he wanted to know. If you could talk a little bit about the differences, we already a little bit talked about it, but the in person versus the self tape auditions and how they compare.
[01:00:30] And I was just thinking, I kind of added to that and, and how that, how has the self tape changed the journey of the actor? Because you couldn't do that before you had to be either in New York or LA. Right. And you had, you know, like it wasn't an option. Yeah. So that's the question from Jack? Yeah. It's been such an interesting change, you know, I just, I, I was taking an acting class with.
[01:00:53] Lisa Braman Garcia, who is a casting director, and also has a studio that with [01:01:00]somebody else that they teach, they do classes at and you know, she's great. She was, but she was saying like, it's a big change. And there's definitely times when it sucks to have to be camera operator, director, do your own makeup, put everything on together.
[01:01:15] And it's a ton of work. I just did. I just did an audition for a role in this film a few weeks ago. And it was a lot of dialogue. It was like nine pages of dialogue. And I, I, I, I memorized the whole thing. You know, all the stuff that you would do for a normal audition, but then you are setting up the camera and creating the shots and trying to do it in a small contained space.
[01:01:38] Cuz you have to have, you're framed from your chest to the top of your head. And, but still you have to try to create this world within that at least in a, in an audition room. You're not so tight, you know, they would for self tapes, they want you to be really tight, but in a, in an audition room, you're, you've got other people that are watching you, so you don't have to be so tight and you can play, you can move, you can do things.
[01:01:59] Doesn't really [01:02:00] work as well in a self tape, but it's a ton of work to get a self tape made, especially when there's a lot of dialogue to remember. And it's, I feel like, like we should be paid, like that's the work we should be paid to be putting some of these self tapes together. But the benefits of self tape for me have been pretty huge, I think.
[01:02:20] And I, I mentioned this before. I mean, because you get to see your work on screen and you see you, you learn really quickly what works and what doesn't, when you're just rehearsing an audition scene to go into an office with, you know, you're not watching yourself, you're not seeing the scene on camera, the way that it ultimately.
[01:02:41] Gets to be. If you were to book the job and you learn about the minutia, you learn about the, the little looks with your eyes, tilt of your head, how every gesture tells a story when you're framed from your chest to the top of your head. And like, that's what I'm saying about, you know, [01:03:00] stillness, how important that is in film to act with with just minimal facial expression.
[01:03:07] And I watched myself go from moving around all over the place and doing all this stuff and, and seeing my insecurities coming through in my physicality, where I doubted what I was doing as an actor and the choices I was making was showing. I mean, in, in other, the places I doubted and didn't know what I was doing came through, I would do the scene.
[01:03:31] I would then put it on my computer. I would watch it on my monitor and I'd be like, oh my God, I'm, I'm like, Moving around and, and blinking my eyes and doing all this stuff that, that I don't need to, to be on film. I can tell this story, just having a connection to whatever the emotion of the scene is, whatever my history is and trust that it's all there.
[01:03:52] And I don't have to move and bounce and bop. And obviously you gotta find moments where you do move, cuz people move in life. There is real. That does [01:04:00] happen. It's not, you're constantly being only, still, but to discover where stillness is essential is has been a huge learning benefit for me. And, and the audition that the self tape process for sure.
[01:04:13] Well, I would assume too, the benefit for a director or a casting director or something is to see that performance for film because it's different than a performance for. And I think that's always a learning curve yes. For actors, right? Yes, you do. And it's not that I'm not, we are not saying a performance is small in the sense that it's a small performance it's that you, you are quieter or a small move reads bigger on film than in the theater.
[01:04:47] Yeah. And I think that's always a battle, especially for, um, actors who are coming straight outta theater. Oh. Into film. Right. Totally, totally. Is that learning curve, but I, I, when I'm [01:05:00]listening to you talk, I'm like, that must be a benefit on the receiving end of those. If an actor that you're actually seeing a closer representation of what they might bring to the set on film than if they're in a.
[01:05:16] A casting room in front of you moving around and get bigger performance. It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. It just, yeah, ultimately it, it, it gets down to what it always comes back to for me is trusting because you make a choice, you, you get the script and you figure out who this character is, and you try to tap into it and you make choices and you gotta trust those choices and fully commit to 'em.
[01:05:41] And when you do the stillness in moments where you need to be still will follow. If you are not committed to a choice, your body is gonna show that your body is gonna move all over the place. And the camera of course sees that. And most of the time, unless it is a necessary character [01:06:00]choice, whatever that movement is, most of the time, the movement that the camera picks up comes off.
[01:06:06] That actor doesn't really know what needs to be done in that scene. And, and they're lost in their floundering. That's what the camera sees. It's so true. Yeah. It's interesting. I, and I only know that because I've been in on the other side of that, I've been the, the actor who moves around and, and, and does too much because I don't know what I'm doing.
[01:06:24] Do you have any advice for listeners out there for if they happen to be actors or anything else? Well, I mean, it's kind of, we talked about it a little bit. Uh, the, the biggest one is if this is something you want to do, make sure that you're doing it for the right reasons that you have a love for the craft and that you get everything that you want out of acting from doing the work, the process, and that, that will give you that resilience that will give you that sticktuitiveness hopefully to stick, to stay with it for the long haul.
[01:06:57] And it's, it can be brutal at times [01:07:00] because it's very hard to separate your sense of self worth. Your your own value as a human being, from whatever success you may or may not have as an actor. So you, and you have to keep those things separate because you have to know that you are a valuable person, whether you have success as an actor or not
[01:07:22] And I say that, cuz I've struggled with it. I have, you know, been in times where I, I have just beaten the crap outta myself because I haven't been working as an actor and I am finding, uh, something to bring that sense of self worth and, and self love outside of acting. Is essential so that you're not all wrapped up in whether or not you get work.
[01:07:44] That's awesome. Yeah. That's a, I think that's very good. Yeah. Because I think that goes across platforms, whether you're an actor or absolutely a writer or a director or whatever it is. Yeah. That's a life lesson for any yeah, for sure you do it for the right reasons [01:08:00] because it, you won't outlast it if you're not.
[01:08:02] Yep. It'll meet you up. Totally. So I have a little segment that I've started, so it's not in the earlier things, but it'll start coming up more and more, but it's called, okay. I call BS, which is a play on blissful spinster, right? BS. We deal with a lot of BS. Um, got it. And I asked our friend Adria, what kind of actor things might be out there that I could put in there.
[01:08:25] And she said something that I hadn't even thought of. So I wanna know what your thoughts are and you can start it with, I call BS on zoom callbacks. I wonder how weird that is for you guys to have to do a callback after you've auditioned and on zoom. It's it's the wor it's the worst. It's terrible. I actually lost a job over it, which I feel I, I still feel terrible about, I, I don't know that I lost it because I hadn't actually been hired yet, but it was for a film last year and I submitted my audition.
[01:08:56] And then a month later I got a, a call that the director [01:09:00] wanted to do a zoom with me, which was fine. And we didn't actually, we only chatted on the zoom. We didn't actually do any, I didn't do any auditioning or performing of the, from the script. But then she asked me to make some adjustments on my own, and then we would do another zoom.
[01:09:13] And so I did that. I sent them to her and then she asked me to do more adjustments. And I was like, and I, I was like, well, and, and I kind of, I, I really shot myself in the foot. It was a, a period. I was, you know, a period where I was feeling less confident in what I was doing. And I was, you know, Sh she should know by now she's seen my work like two times on this thing, I'm either right.
[01:09:38] For the role or I'm not, and I am not gonna do another. I'm not gonna do it again. I'm just not, and that didn't go over very well but it really ultimately it was about this whole damn zoom thing. I just, the, the, the time that it takes and, and the, the, the way [01:10:00] that we're forced to interact with each other, doing zoom is a huge turnoff for me.
[01:10:08] It really changed my whole, uh, my whole take on it. And I just kept thinking to myself, God, if we'd been in the room and she wanted me to make these adjustments, I could just do it right then. And then she says, okay, now try it this way. I'm like, yeah, I'll do it. Let's just, I'll do it as many times as you want in the room.
[01:10:23] And I just was like, I had gotten to a point where I was just, I, I was feeling over it. and there is a lot of BS around it. , it's a huge amount of BS. It, it, it's really hard to feel like you're really connecting and doing what you know we're supposed to be doing when it's over a, a monitor. It just doesn't feel the same for me.
[01:10:45] And, and maybe that's my age. Maybe the younger kids are like, what are you talking about? It's fine. This is how we do it now. And, and I'm sure, and I'm sure that's true, but I, I'm not, you know, obviously I've done a, [01:11:00] a, a ton of zoom chats and did a, I did a convention over zoom, uh, a couple of years ago after COVID started.
[01:11:06] And it, it, it is what it is. And it's, we're ultimately, we're lucky to have it during a pandemic. I, I, I don't, I'm not missing that point, but at the same time, it's just, it's brutal. well, I would assume when I, when Adrian, cause I hadn't even thought of that, to be honest, cuz most of the. Up until now, most of my casting's been, you know, I meet someone or I, you know, however it is, and I would assume it's one thing for self tape and to get something like that.
[01:11:36] But even me as a director, I would assume I'd be missing something if the next, if when I go, yeah, I wanna see that actor if it's not in the room, because there's a, there's an energy that I. From meeting you in person. Oh yeah. That like this conversation's going great because we know each other, I've done a couple of these with people I've never met in person, but [01:12:00] I've chased down and they all, they're all fine and all great.
[01:12:02] But it's also, there is, it might have gone even better if I had met them in person, even for 10 minutes beforehand. Sure. Because yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there is this in person thing, but especially for a director and an actor. Yeah. I think especially when it's not, it's not the situation where you've gotten the role and you're on set.
[01:12:20] It's the situation where you and I are feeling each other out. Yeah. About whether this role's gonna work for this actor, if I'm gonna be able to yeah. Or if this marriage, because it is once I've cast someone it's a marriage. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So anyway, um, so when, when that came in, I was like, oh, I can't even.
[01:12:42] Yeah. Cause I'm gonna have to deal with that possibly at some point. When I get closer depending on where we're getting gonna happen, probably because it's also yeah. It's and I think I was gonna say this earlier, because one of the things that like we talked about in that acting class with re about is in person audition, [01:13:00] you know, will that ever come back?
[01:13:02] And the answer is yes and no, it can come back. And I think for people who really need it, certainly for like callbacks and things like that, I think it will come back. But for that first round, I think the self tape is going to be here to stay because the convenience of it from just the, I mean, it takes a lot of time for an actor to put together a self tape, but in terms of the driving tool location, and for the casting people to have a location and have producers drive to that location and all of that, that used to happen five, 10 years ago.
[01:13:39] Um, because self tape. Started it started shifting towards self tape even before the pandemic. That was a lot that was a lot of coordinating and a lot of people's time. And I think that that having the convenience of being able to just pop on your computer and see auditions that come to you without having to drive someplace is huge.[01:14:00]
[01:14:00] So it's kind of like it's here to stay once we can get back to the option of being in person. I think that is gonna come back for, for callbacks. And if you're going to network that kind of thing. Yeah. I mean, I think that's what I was like, the zoom callback to me is the part where I'm like, I, I like, I, I do kind of now talking to you, I do kind of like the idea that I could get a bunch of self tapes that I can see how this actor is, is actually their performance is happening with the camera initially.
[01:14:32] Cuz I can see if they're, if they know how to work that yeah. In their audition. Yeah. But I do think I would miss. once I'm like, can I meet that person and that person for a callback, I would miss being in the room with that person. Totally. Because at that point, totally for me, it's an energy thing. You can't replace that a personal connection.
[01:14:53] Yeah. Okay. So this is the last thing. Are you, do you have anything you wanna plug you've got coming out for? Do you just [01:15:00] wanna tell people to watch stranger things? What do you wanna do? Uh, watch stranger. For sure. And go back and rewatch agents of shield too. No, I, I, I have, like I said, I have, there's a, a bit in a movie that I did a couple of weeks ago that I think it's, and it's called transplant.
[01:15:15] I don't know. I don't even know that it has any kind of distribution or anything. Of course, I think it's gonna do a festival circuit. It's a, it's pretty low budget film for Whitaker as a producer on it, but it's could have some good legs. And my, my role would be, you might catch me if, if you're paying attention and then, but I do have a film coming up that I'm shooting in September that is also super low budget, but I think is a solid script.
[01:15:38] And it's an interesting kind of centers around this family. It's basically a four character film and it's a family, mother, father, and two grown kids, a brother and sister. And it's about a Jewish family that runs a, like a kind of mafia, like a Jewish mafia crime ring. And they are on the run [01:16:00] cuz things have gone bad.
[01:16:02] and they're trying to get themselves to a safe place. So it's a it's, but then all of this family craziness comes out while they're trying to, you know, figure out if they're gonna survive. So, anyway, it's a cool story. It's called right now. It's called the Hersh project and I'm not that's the working title.
[01:16:19] We'll see what happens with that. okay. Well, that's awesome. So, so yeah, that'll be. So you've got a couple projects coming up and then there's other stuff that the listeners can go find. And also Joel's two of my short films, Boze, Nova, and hashtag no filter. If you really want to go digging past agents of shield and yes, and stranger things and Boze Nova is not a character you've seen Joel do before.
[01:16:42] Just, just to warn, huh? You may watch it and, and be entertained and then wish that you'd never seen it. just kidding. But Joel, thank you so much. This has been a really fun chat and thanks for all of your time and yeah, it's just been awesome. Yeah. It's been a lot of fun. [01:17:00] I'm glad to have an opportunity to chat with you.
[01:17:02] Thank you so much for tuning into bliss. Finster. If any of these conversations are resonating with you, please subscribe on apple podcasts, Google podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find bliss will spinster on Instagram and Twitter and through our website, bliss will spinster.com. Again, thanks so much for joining me on this journey and until next week go find your happy.