Meet James Ellis Deakins! James is a Digital Workflow Specialist, Filmmaker & Podcaster. James lives in Los Angeles and is both a creative and business partner of cinematographer Roger Deakins. James came up the ranks as a script supervisor for such films as Thunderheart, The Shawshank Redemption & Mercury Rising. She has transitioned into a Digital Workflow Specialist, working in a role James really enjoys as she gets to work with her best friend and creative partner, her husband Roger on such films as Sicario, No Country For Old Men, 1917, Blade Runner 2049, and their latest collaboration with director Sam Mendes – Empire of Light. During the pandemic, James created the TEAM DEAKINS Podcast which is a series of conversations between James and Roger and a guest, covering all aspects of movie making. This podcast is such a great resource for both beginning and seasoned filmmakers and everyone in between and I’m so excited that it’s coming back for season two! I discovered James through the Team Deakins Podcast, and I decided to be bold and send the podcast an email asking if James would like to be on Blissful Spinster. To my surprise, James, herself answered and she said yes! I’m so excited to bring you my conversation with James, we laughed a lot, learned a lot and was the kind of chat that leaves you smiling. We talked about the importance of collaboration on a film, what directors can learn from a script supervisor and how we both believe in sharing our knowledge. Connect with James on Instagram at - https://www.instagram.com/team.deakins Connect with James onTwitter at - https://twitter.com/teamdeakins Check out the Team Deakins on its website at - https://teamdeakins.libsyn.com/# Learn more about the Blissful Spinster Podcast and connect with Cris on the website at - https://www.blissfulspinster.com
15. James Ellis Deakins - Digital Workflow Specialist, Filmmaker & Podcaster
[00:00:00] Cris: Hi, and welcome to Blissful Spinster. This week's guest is digital workflow, specialist, filmmaker, and podcaster James Ellis Deakins James lives in Los Angeles and is both the creative and business partner of cinematographer. Roger Deakins, James came up the ranks as a script supervisor for such films as thunderheart The Shawkshank Redemption and Mercury Rising.
[00:00:21] She has transitioned into a digital workflow specialist working in a role. James really enjoys as she gets to work with her best friend and creative partner. Her husband, Roger on such films as Sicario, No Country For Old Men, 1917 Bladerunner 2049, and their latest collaboration with director Sam Mendes, Empire of Light.
[00:00:41] During the pandemic. James created the Team Deakins Podcast, which is a series of conversations between James and Roger and a guest covering all aspects of movie making this podcast is such a great resource for both beginning and Seasoned filmmakers and everyone in between. And I am so excited. It's coming back for season [00:01:00] two.
[00:01:00] I discovered James through the Team Deakins Podcast, and I decided to be bold and send the podcast an email asking if James would like to be on blissful spinster to my surprise, James herself answered. And she said, yes, I am so excited to bring in my conversation with James. We laughed a lot. We learned a lot and the kind of chat that leaves you smiling.
[00:01:21] We talked about the importance of collaboration on a film, what directors can learn from script supervisors and how we both believe in sharing our knowledge. So, however you found this podcast, thank you for tuning in and please enjoy this week's episode. Hi James.
[00:01:36] James: Hi, how are you? Good. I'm glad to
[00:01:38] Cris: be here.
[00:01:39] I'm so happy. You said yes to doing my podcast? Yeah, I think this
[00:01:42] James: is the first one I've ever done that I wasn't leading. .
[00:01:46] Cris: Oh, that's cool. And I wanted specifically to ask you just cuz I, I am a fan of team deacons and when I listen to you, you, you ask all these questions. I'm like, I wanna ask her questions.
[00:01:57] So that's why I'm so happy. that? [00:02:00] You said? Yes.
[00:02:02] James: Oh good. Well I'm
[00:02:03] Cris: ready. Okay, cool. I'm gonna start the way you always start with your guests. So, uh, it's coming back to hit me. Yeah, it is. It's coming back to hit you. So when, when and how did your journey into film and arts and stuff
[00:02:16] James: began? It's funny because when I was in high school, because I am a bit of an overachiever, I took an AP and advanced placement history course and there was a list of papers that I had to do that you could do.
[00:02:30] And there were asterisks by some and they said, oh. don't do those cuz they're hard. So I decided to do one and one was an interpretation of Charles beat Beard's economic critique of the constitution of the United States. So I had a lot of fun with it because I said, no, no, no, it's not based on economics.
[00:02:48] It's based on ideals. And I did all this stuff. And so I decided I wanted to go into economics, which I mean, from theory, going into economics. So I went to college and I took a semester [00:03:00] of economics and GNP and NP. It was awful. It was just, but my concept was, oh, I'll be the president of GM. I'll be the first woman president of GM.
[00:03:09] But then I realized, do I really want to, and in the meantime I had taken Latin and Greek in sort of a, a program that started very early. So I was very advanced in Latin, actually I'd taken Latin. So I started taking Latin and realized, oh, I wanna continue that because it's something I would never do on my own.
[00:03:29] I might do. Psychology. I would read the books on my Mo own, but translating Latin on my own, I wouldn't really be doing. And when you do Latin, you're reading philosophers and history. And so it's really, it's great. But then I got in, I also was interested in Greek through the theory of it because I read some translations and I would go to the teacher and say, well, in Latin it would be disco construction, which would cast out on it.
[00:03:55] No, no. In Greek it's this. So purely from a theoretical standpoint, [00:04:00] I decided I wanted to do Greek too. So as an undergraduate, I did a graduate court, uh, degree in Latin and undergrad in Greek. It turned out I hated Greek anyway. So my father was like, oh my God, what are you gonna do when you get out?
[00:04:15] You've. Support yourself. I'm not gonna support you. And I said, yeah, I know. I know, but I'm not gonna teach, but okay. And in the meantime, I got involved in doing multimedia shows and these were slide shows with a soundtrack. So it was freshman orientation and junior orientation. And it was that telling the story that I really started to enjoy.
[00:04:35] And we did this multimedia presentation on rape on campus, but we weren't allowed to say that it could happen by people that you might know. Wow. And that of course was the most important thing to get across. So I had this idea that we would, there, there were certain landmarks of the campus. So we would shoot all our slides with those landmarks to try and [00:05:00] say, this can happen here.
[00:05:02] So I was fascinated by the power of that, that actually could work. So when I, I graduated, I went to New York and I thought, okay, I'm gonna get into film. And I did wanna direct, I, I just thought it would be great, but. I needed a job quickly. So I was given a job at a lab and it was supposed to be just to organize a service department, but I was given the title of supervisors.
[00:05:26] So all of the guys from the bottom of the lab that never see the light a day would come up and go, the CRI has Newton rings. Should I run it through the bath again? Or should I reprint it? And I didn't even know what a CR was. So I would say, hang on, I'll find out. Cause, and I went to the supervisor, the big supervisor and, and he explained to me what a C was, what root and rings were, how to look, how to make that decision.
[00:05:47] So I started getting into the technical end and I became a true supervisor. So I rose up in the lab and I was doing the equivalent job to [00:06:00] a man, another man who of course, was married with children and was making three times as much. So I asked for a raise because I actually was doing it and they stalled me and installed me.
[00:06:10] And then. I went to a set to travel, to a set, to check that the DP was having a problem with the dailies. And the guys that I knew on the crew said, well, they convinced me actually, they convinced me to quit. And that was like, oh, I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. So I came in the next day and I said, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna quit.
[00:06:31] And they said, well, we'll give you a $25 raise. And, but luckily my mind was already gone. I said, no, no, I gotta go. So I couldn't leave for two months because the president and the chairman and the vice president were out at conventions and I was running a lab. So I thought, Hmm, that's funny. And they wouldn't give me a race, but that was the best thing that happened to me because then I did post production once and I was on a set.
[00:06:56] And one of the guys said to me, [00:07:00] why don't you do, Hey, James, what you should do is a script supervisor. We don't really know what. It is, but it's a lot of detail. You'd probably like it. And so I had no idea what it was and I'm so happy that the first jobs that I did were small jobs. I think that's really important cuz you learn on the job.
[00:07:17] I started scripting and because it is an impossible job, I loved it because one person can't do it, but you have to you know, and basically as a script supervisor, you are the memory of the film. So you're what I liked about it is you see the film in its entirety and you have to remember what the dreams were in prep.
[00:07:42] And then when you're actually shooting. When you have to change something, how it affects something down the line and an actor will, might come up to the director. Who's completely overwhelmed with so much and say, I don't wanna take my bag out of the house when I leave. And that seems like a great idea, but the [00:08:00] script's gotta be there going.
[00:08:00] But three scenes later that we shot two months ago, he has the bag. So, and it comes right after. So that doesn't work. So just loves the idea of having the full movie in my head the whole time. And it's also the power of cutting, knowing the power of cutting and knowing what you don't need and what you do need.
[00:08:17] So, yeah, I, I enjoyed it now. The, a script also has to do all these other things. It's continuity. You are working with other departments, but you are overseeing and making sure that everybody's on the same page because oftentimes, you know, something from the director that the other departments don't do.
[00:08:33] So you spread the word and you're working with you're working with production and your production reports, cuz you're letting them know how many pages were shot. And the most important thing to is you're checking running time, which I think I've noticed a lot of times lately, they seem to do less of, and that's not good cuz you get in trouble in the end.
[00:08:54] You have to time it in the beginning, which was always the worst part for me. Cause like I had to [00:09:00] do the battle and I'd say get outta the room. I've got a time go away. And because you have to act it out, cuz you need to know the physicality of how long it'll take and you need to know from the director how he's or she is planning to cut it and then you keep track of it when you shoot it.
[00:09:14] And so if things seem to, and of course you do, you may do five shots for a scene, but you have to think of it cut together and how long that scene's running. So you really have to know in your head, you've gotta be able to cut. And then you've got to say, look, we seem to be every scene. We seem to be coming 30 seconds over, but that's adding up because if you don't catch it, then.
[00:09:42] In the end to have to do that in the cutting room. You're taking away scenes that you want in the movie, but something's gotta go because you do have that agreement normally to deliver a certain length of film. So I, I think that's really important and, and also one of [00:10:00] the hardest things to do. And then you just also, you're making sure that the script itself is shot, that all the things that you may have talked with the director in the beginning.
[00:10:09] Oh, it would be great if we remember to get an insert in this scene, because we might actually play it later just as a flashback or something, or wild track or visual effect shots that you need to get. So you, you need to keep all of that together. So I liked it. I mean, it definitely is a challenge. Yeah. I, I liked it a lot.
[00:10:30] Sorry. I've gone on .
[00:10:31] Cris: No, I love those kinds of answers. I'm just, I, I took a script supervision class, I think when I, I moved here in 97 mm-hmm in 96. Sorry. And you know, when you're a PA and you're trying to yeah. Figure out your way onto set. Yeah. And at some point somebody gave like this, like you pay $25, you come to this room and teach you everything you need to know to be a script supervisor.
[00:10:53] And I remember just being like, it was so much yeah. Like you were just talking about. And I think it's such a [00:11:00] valuable yeah. Cause I haven't had one on my short films. Oh really? Because I haven't had, well, I haven't been able to. Yeah. Like I didn't have a friend who knew how to do it, but uh, I have a friend who knows how to operate a camera and that's great between the two of us were like, yeah, that's the frame we like, you know?
[00:11:15] And I taught myself how to edit. I've edited my short films. Yeah. Because I don't. I didn't feel right about not paying an editor. Mm-hmm, , it's one thing to ask friends to come over for a couple of days. Yeah. To help you film it. It's another thing to ask someone to work two months while you're trying to yeah.
[00:11:33] To shape the thing. But script supervision is just, I like I long for the day I have that partner set, keeping track and adding and elevating to what comes out in the end. Yeah. And I hadn't even thought about the timing. I don't think I even knew that, that you are editing it, the film in your head as say, I'm directing the film and you're letting me know if I'm shooting too much or if they're not moving [00:12:00] fast enough when we're doing the scene or yeah.
[00:12:01] Whatever it is, it's fascinating to me.
[00:12:03] James: And, and also the script supervisor should be in contact with the editor because the other thing the script's doing is they're giving the editor notes. So if. The director is saying, I like this, taking this, take the script then says, what in the other takes that they're not looking at right away.
[00:12:20] They didn't like, so if they're concerned about the ending and the preferred takes, they can look on her or his notes and say, oh, but this one, they just didn't like the beginning, maybe the ends. Right? So you're giving them a book that basically tells them all what's in all of the footage and you're keeping track of lens information.
[00:12:40] So if you ever have to reshoot and stuff like that, but I think cutting your own phones in one respect. It's great because there's nothing like cutting something to understand. I used to, as a script supervisor, go into the cutting room afterwards, if they would let me and sit and see what they had done, because it taught me not to think there's only one way [00:13:00] to do it.
[00:13:00] So it was good. But at the same time, it's also good to have a, another set of eyes. Yeah. Through those, I don't care. It took out eight hours to do the shot. It doesn't work.
[00:13:11] Cris: Yeah. No. And I don't, by any means, I already have an editor attached to my film. Uh, a really brilliant female editor that I've I work my day job.
[00:13:22] What I, what lets me pay my rent is working in, in, at the moment in true crime kind of documentary television area. And so I met my editor, um, her name's Caitlin Dixon on one of those docs and she's just brilliant and funny and we just get along really well. And, but because I've done some editing, we can talk like we have a shared language.
[00:13:43] That's good. And that's what I think. And I also think on set or when I'm looking at my own script, cuz I've written my script, you know, I have a better idea now. Of how to shoot or the anatomy of what I wanna shoot. Right. Because I've physically made mistakes already, which good that [00:14:00] I can physically see.
[00:14:01] Yeah. Right. And understand from editing my own stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot of value there, but getting back to what you were talking about with script supervision, it sounds like you're, it's such an important role. It sounds like to me, and it's also, especially the way you took it, you are this bridge between what happened on set and what's gonna come into post.
[00:14:21] Yeah.
[00:14:22] James: And I kind of do that now too, because I go through to the di so I know yeah. All the visual effects and stuff like that. But,
[00:14:30] Cris: so how important do you think that relationship between a script supervisor and a director is, I mean, should you be kind of hip to hip and know what each other goals are?
[00:14:40] James: Yeah. I that's the way I work people work differently. I think so, because I think they can be a great tool. I also know that they. Can maybe also be a hindrance at times, depending, you know, especially if you're working, you gotta work fast, you don't have a lot of choice and there are [00:15:00] rules, but there are also rules that don't matter.
[00:15:02] And there are rules that work great if you break them. And so to ha to have someone that has that flexibility, I think the key thing is for that person to tell you when it absolutely doesn't work, you, you know, but if somebody makes some sort of continuity mistake, there's generally a way around it and it's not forcing a cut or anything, but if there's a story point and not having the gloves on or something ruins that story point, then that's a big thing.
[00:15:30] So I, I think finding a person, that's not just read the book, but gets the flow and also a person, because a script ideally should be able to work with all the people on the set because. There's a lot of information. That's gotta go back and forth. You know, everybody does it differently. And, and also it would depend on the director that I was working with, because if it was, I had to find that out [00:16:00] fast and that was actually very good for me in dealing with people, because I had to find out whether they wanted my opinion about, do you think, see, that's always the way you put it too.
[00:16:11] Do you think that maybe when we shot him last week approaching the door, he was a little more angry than when he's walking through the door. You know, that kind of information, which is a little bit out of the sphere of script, technically, but it was always the things that I was, I'm always looking at performance.
[00:16:30] I just like it, but so it's like the. Needs to tell the script what they want, because there are also the script needs to know too, because the director has so much coming into them when it's not a good time. I mean, there are many times when I've wanted to tell the director something, but I knew it wasn't the right time.
[00:16:47] And I had to
[00:16:48] Cris: wait. Yeah, it was a lot going on, on the set. Yeah. Well, I'm struck because as I listened to your amazing, uh, origin story, you had originally at some point thought to direct, do you still Harbor [00:17:00] that I do. You still cause you can. Yeah. I, I you're the second I interviewed Susan Linberg, who's an editor.
[00:17:06] She did, uh, 13 going on 30 and a few other big films and she's she had started out wanting to be a director and I'm like at the tail end of our interview, I'm like, well, I'm gonna keep bugging you but I just, you sound like, as I hear you speak, I think you have something to say. That's just me, James. I don't, yeah, I'd love to,
[00:17:25] James: but the way that Roger and I work together is.
[00:17:30] Such a, a team. We approach it together. We figure out what it's going to be hail. Oftentimes talk with the direct, like 1917, he talked with Sam about it was all in one shot. So that technically is different, but let go of the technical right now and talk about if we were shooting this with cuts, who would you wanna be with at this point, that point.
[00:17:53] So get all of that worked out and what's important in each scene. Then he comes back to me and goes, okay, how [00:18:00] the hell are we gonna shoot this? And then figuring out how, what technology would help us, how we would make the blends and working all of that out in order to make it dramatically as best as possible.
[00:18:14] So what I do now in working with him is again, from the beginning of the film, all the way to the end, cause I go through the di with him and I also liaise again. Because I'm the people person, he is the artist , you know, and he, I'm trying to let him just think about the tech about the visual and let him do that.
[00:18:39] I'm chasing down the fact that do we have that equipment, or why is that camera acting that way? Let's figure it out. I talk with the producers or the director at, at times about other things that they need to know, because when Roger's UN set and operating he's on the camera and people are afraid to ask him a question, but I am not because I'll tap him on the shoulder and he is not gonna bark at [00:19:00] me cause he has to go home with me.
[00:19:02] So we have this really, it's like, we're two people, but we're working on one goal and it's incredibly satisfying in one respect. And because Rogers, Roger, we, we do have a lot of, we're able to put our ideas in. So that's also very satisfying. Well, what do you think? I mean, it is always we're there for the director and that's it, but.
[00:19:24] We can ask, you know, well, what if we do this? And to see your idea in the finished product is cool. So it's good, but I don't think I have time to be director right now.
[00:19:36] Cris: was curious. You brought it my fault.
[00:19:38] James: Yeah, no, actually would, but I just don't have time. I would also like to produce because. I like solving problems.
[00:19:49] That is just so exciting when something seems absolutely impossible. There's always an answer and finding it is great.
[00:19:55] Well,
[00:19:55] Cris: you sound like a producer already to me, just so [00:20:00] getting back to the, just a couple of little questions here with the scripts you were written. Yeah. Right. How early should like, cuz I'm, I'm mounting my film.
[00:20:08] So a lot of these questions are posed from my viewpoint of a director channel, you know, and I haven't heard much of that on a podcast necessarily. Like I really want my listeners to be brought along on this journey with me learning this stuff. So how early in the process should a script script supervisor be brought
[00:20:24] James: in?
[00:20:24] Normally they bring em in about two weeks beforehand, but I always thought something more like four weeks would be helpful because one of the things I have to do. Have the time to sit down with you and, and you've got a lot going on to understand what you want from the story. And also to understand the timeline of the story, cuz that's a breakdown that they do a day breakdown.
[00:20:47] Mm-hmm which when you're in the middle of the craziness of shooting, you use that timeline a lot because how dirty should they be? Is this two days later or one day later. So having that when [00:21:00] you're calm and you've worked it out is really helpful. And then also the script should be liaising with the other departments like costumes and hair and makeup.
[00:21:10] And if there's a bruise, how long is the bruise gonna be? If there's, if you know that. Decided that she's gonna spill coffee on her dress. Then you're gonna run over to costumes and say, did you get that note? You need multiples and things like that. So it's really helpful, I think to have them on earlier.
[00:21:30] So they see the process when things are go as they're coming along and sometimes can add to it saying, but because their mind is always on the practical there, but you do know then we'd have to turn around and do this or something. So I, I would say four weeks, but I. Sure that they do that often. no,
[00:21:50] Cris: but I'm gonna try, I might have a fight with my producer.
[00:21:54] Yeah. But, uh, and so what lessons should directors be open to learning from seasons script [00:22:00] supervisors? Because directing, unless you're te television director, you don't get the chance to do it all that often, right? Yeah. But a script supervisor is across the board on many, many films. Well, exactly.
[00:22:10] James: And also they've worked with other directors so they can see how somebody else handled it and they, so they might have a suggestion.
[00:22:18] But I think if you've got someone who knows and that's the problem, it depends who you have, cuz they may not know. But if, if you have someone who knows what's important and not isn't important, it could save you so much time or is able to save. It's kind of like having an editor on set because I think it's.
[00:22:35] personally not to have the editor on set because the editors that I know, well, they like to see it fresh. Mm-hmm they like to see it as an audience and figure out what their reaction to it is first. So having someone that really knows cutting well is really helpful. So long as they're not constantly telling you, we have to reshoot this take [00:23:00] because that glass isn't exactly where it was, but it doesn't matter the angle of the camera change.
[00:23:07] So actually sometimes when you change the angle and you put things exactly where they were, they looked wrong because the angle is so such an extreme change. So if you had someone. That knew that that would be really helpful to, to be reminded when you've got this pressure on to, to do this. And, um, I don't know.
[00:23:27] I, I think I, this isn't necessarily from a script supervisor, but I would say for a director, I worked with a director one time who taught me something that was great. And I, I wish that I'd see it U use more often because he would get the performance, but the actors would be performing. And then he'd say it on the last one, listen, just do me a favor, just do it about 30% faster.
[00:23:53] I'm never gonna use it. But, and it was always better because it was more, it was less [00:24:00] thought about it was more off the cuff as a person would speak. And, um, I never forget that because it, every time it cuz I thought, oh, they can't possibly go faster. I can't imagine it. And then when I'd see it, I'd realize, oh, it's not speed.
[00:24:14] It's just speeded up enough. That it sounds more natural. I love that. Which is because one of the hardest things I think is cutting around when an actor has dialogue is cutting around the space in the dialogue, because it's not like, okay, go to the other person. So if you have it more compressed together, that sounds right.
[00:24:38] And it depends obviously on the actor, maybe that the character, maybe the character is a stumbler or whatever, but it generally
[00:24:45] Cris: helps. Yeah. I mean, I was reading Barry Felds book and he said, you always, you always need to get it faster. Yeah. I mean, I guess he does a lot of comedy and the reason I was reading it is cuz my script's, uh, unromantic comedy , which we can get into later.
[00:24:59] [00:25:00] But, um, but thank you for telling for relaying that story. Cuz I'll have that in my head now, um, to deal with that. I, I love learning obviously. I, I learned a long time ago. That no matter what your title is on set, you don't know everything. Absolutely. And you can learn something, you can learn something even from the PA who's their
[00:25:24] James: first day on, on set.
[00:25:25] So what Roger taught me when I first started working with him is the importance of making people invested. So asking them what they think bring, because also they're, they have their areas of expertise. So if you make them involved, like when I'm doing the workflow and everything, I wanna know what I've got an idea of how it's gonna run, but I wanna know what other people think.
[00:25:50] Cuz half the time, sometimes they can have a better idea, but also if we decide on it together, then it is theirs also. So it's great [00:26:00] to involve everyone in it with the knowledge that you've got the final say, so get everything in and then feel no problem about going. Okay, this is really great. And I got what you're saying that I think I'm gonna do it this way, period, and move on.
[00:26:16] But that way it's just getting that information from other people and getting those different viewpoints. I think that's the key, because when you're working on creating a story and telling a story, you have it in your head. So it's really great to see it also from other eyes and get a little bit outta your head if you know what I
[00:26:35] Cris: mean.
[00:26:36] Yeah. And when you get people invested, they help you elevate what's in your head. Yeah. You know, I mean, my head's a pretty cool place, but it's much cooler when other people play around with whatever comes out. So ,
[00:26:48] James: and I know that you were gonna ask about small budget versus large budget. Oh yeah. Yeah. I, I think that one of the things is we approach a larger budget.
[00:26:57] We don't do the big ones as a small budget [00:27:00] because you, a small budget makes you think more. And if you can't do something. The easy way you find another way to do it, which in actuality, half the time it's better. Anyway. And when we went to do blade runner, they had single camera. Yeah. You know, we'd worked with them before.
[00:27:19] They did have some production people that had come because they were got some people that were used to small. Some people that were used to bigger and they kept coming to me and going, but when are we gonna order the, the nine other cameras, you know, we're not gonna do nine cameras and they couldn't see it, how you made a, a movie like that without nine cameras.
[00:27:40] But we couldn't see it the other way, but by not assuming those nine cameras and bringing them in, we ended up saving money there that we could use for the things that we really needed to. And I think also in smaller budget, because we just did empire of light and that was small. And we were talking to, I guess it was [00:28:00] the prop person on it.
[00:28:01] And he had done something recently that was much bigger. And he said that. Great thing is you've got less people on a small budget and your turn to more, you know, you're able to do what you do. And so it's a more rewarding feeling that you don't have to talk to. Seven people about doing what you know is right.
[00:28:20] If that makes
[00:28:20] Cris: sense. Yeah, that totally makes sense. Cause I, when I first started out as a PA, I, I started out in little independent films hundred yeah, hundred thousand. And then my first big budget film was general daughter was John Travolta and James Crowell. And I came in just for, I was a day player for a week mm-hmm and I kicked butt.
[00:28:40] So they kept me on the rest of the LA shoot and then gave me my first onscreen credit, cuz I oh, wow. But I remember just how like JT, this is what we would call him on set mm-hmm John Travolta. He had his own face camp and his own PA I would have to talk to his PA to tell the PA would then tell him, you [00:29:00] know, it was just this bigger, massive.
[00:29:02] And I can that note, you just said of the proper guy, I can see how that might, the more intimate setting of a smaller film, I think might be more rewarding in the end for all of your
[00:29:14] James: crew. Yeah. And we. Feel that filmmaking is a collaboration. And it's very interesting when we've talked to people on podcast, that's what we're getting back from them.
[00:29:24] That's what they see it as. So I think basically a film is a collaboration. And so if you start having all this hierarchy in it and all this, you need to talk to this person who will talk to this person who will then talk to that person. It just takes time. And it takes away from the idea that, Hey, we're all here to make a movie.
[00:29:46] And that's also the most rewarding feeling too, is it's very rewarding to feel like you're working for a reason. Yeah.
[00:29:54] Cris: And, and that the director, because that's the person's vision or in my case, the writer, director [00:30:00] mm-hmm has brought you together for this. Yeah, I think, yeah. And I say this a few times on the podcast, so people who've listened to other episodes will hear, have heard this, but I'm a few years ago, I started realizing that when I'm writing a script, it's not just a blueprint.
[00:30:15] Which is what you often hear people say, mm-hmm, , it's actually a conversation. Yeah. I'm having a conversation with Roger. If he's my DP, I'm having a conversation with you. I'm having a conversation with the prop master. I'm having, you know, if I've done my job right. In that script, every single one of those people has been invited into the conversation and can see the vision that I've written.
[00:30:39] Yes. And that's how I, yes. That's how I look at the blank page and go, all right, let's start the conversation. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:46] James: Mm-hmm and then when during prep, prep is such a key part. It's funny, cuz Denovo always says it's the time for dreaming cause anything is possible. So you do need to dream. [00:31:00] And we, before blade burner, we, we got together in Canada and we were trying to figure out what the world was.
[00:31:09] So it was really quite a luxury to be able to, to spend that time doing nothing. But then. Occasionally, we get visited by producers who would sit in the room and we would say, well, what if there were army tanks coming up the hill, the producer would disappear and then the next person would no, but that wouldn't work BEC oh yeah, yeah, you're right.
[00:31:29] You're right. But in the meantime, he's ordering army tanks because the whole con, but the concept of that time is whatever you say, doesn't have to stick. You can go wherever you want. and then bring it down to what the film's gonna be.
[00:31:44] Cris: So, yeah. So you one, there was one question I wanted to get your thought on because mm-hmm, historically script supervisors have been seen as, as a, a woman's job.
[00:31:53] And I think I've seen more male script supervisors recently than like, like I'm a member of a [00:32:00] Facebook group called I need a script supervisor there seems to be pretty good balance and gender that's posting, but it's a historically, you know, script supervisor is a job for a woman. And at times they were called script girl or scripty, which I've heard some script supervisors are called scripty, which some people don't like, and some are don't care.
[00:32:20] What are your thoughts? All
[00:32:21] James: I, I think, um, script girl is, is derogatory and it was one of the downsides of being a script supervisor because the amount of work you're putting into it. And then I, I once. Did it film as a script and it was quite low budget. And I said, really, this what? He said, all the keys are getting it.
[00:32:44] And then I got up to the very distant location I got there and found out cuz the keys talked to one another, that everybody was making more money than me and I walked in and they, well, first he said, well, you're just the script supervisor. And I'm like, well yeah, do it without me try that. But [00:33:00] then also he tried to use the concept of, but you've already agreed to it, which I'm actually that's.
[00:33:06] That is a weak point of mind cuz I did agree to it and I do like to stand by my word, but I also knew that it was wrong for script supervisors overall to be paid less than another key member, a. Person, because you're a key also. So that does happen that because it is traditionally a woman's role. But when I was coming up in New York, there was a woman who was one of the first women electricians.
[00:33:31] And, um, I just admired her so much because she was breaking boundaries there and she was great and, um, was scared of her. you know, because I thought, well, she doesn't wanna talk to me. So years later we've become friends, really good friends. And I told her that, you know, I was always, I didn't think you wanna know me.
[00:33:49] And she said, I was scared of you. I mean, you were with the, in crowd, the director and the DB and everything. So it's funny how your viewpoints that's.
[00:33:56] Cris: It's interesting. I, um, I, so [00:34:00] I, I went to undergrad and grad school and I went to university of Illinois and I studied technical theater, not, not film and at the university of Illinois, I'm the only the second woman to have graduated with theater technology.
[00:34:11] Master of fine arts. Oh, wow. Great. Yeah. And that was in 1996, so we think we've come a long way. And yet we haven't, but I was gonna say, I, one of the things I tried to do when I was first starting out was get into 7 28 as an electrician because I had that. Yeah, yeah. Technical theater background. I messed with lights and I designed scenery.
[00:34:32] And, and again, that was all a function of, I could have gotten a degree in scene design or lighting design, but I wanted to learn what the technical director did so that I. Use a budget better when I designed, like, it was, that's just the way my brain worked. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:34:49] James: Yeah. Well, it makes sense. But
[00:34:51] Cris: yeah, I tried to get into 7 28 and it wasn't a friendly environment out here in LA, in the nineties for a woman trying to get into the union.
[00:34:57] Same in New York. Yeah. I mean, [00:35:00] I I'd love to, to meet that friend of yours and just go nice job. But I know, I know what it took, um, to get here, but yeah, it's, it's crazy. I'm, I'm hoping I'm feeling a shift and I'm hoping it's a permanent one. Yeah. That we're getting better and breaking through those ceilings and stuff a little more.
[00:35:20] James: I think, I mean, we've got a lot of talk of diversity out there and all of that, but I think the downside of that sometimes is when you put a P person in a position that, um, they don't know. Doing any kind of help in helping them learn. So therefore when they fail, they go, oh, look, see that woman can't women can't do that or whatever.
[00:35:44] So I think you've gotta be really careful to help people. When I was becoming a script supervisor, nobody would help me. Yeah. Nobody. And it was so complicated and confusing. So I always, I determined once I became one and I did become one, I, I [00:36:00] decided I'm gonna help anybody who asked me and I did. That's
[00:36:03] Cris: amazing.
[00:36:03] I know. I, we come from like, even my generation, I'm not sure. I think we're close, but I don't. I think you're a little older possibly
[00:36:12] James: yes. Yes that's okay.
[00:36:13] But
[00:36:14] Cris: even in, even cuz I'm gen X, so I was born in 1970 mm-hmm even as I was coming up, there was this, if there was a woman above me, they didn't help really, because it was almost a threat sometimes.
[00:36:25] Yeah.
[00:36:25] James: Yeah. I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah.
[00:36:28] Cris: Yeah. Not always, but there was still that and I've made it. as I've come up. I always try to reach back. Yeah. Or somebody asks me a question and gets me on the phone and I'll yeah. Yeah. That's pop their ear off about what I do know it's important. It is. It's important.
[00:36:44] And I'm not saying, I mean, we've all gotten help along the way, or we wouldn't be where we are. Mm-hmm I value that so much that I'm like, you have to turn around and give that back. Exactly. You have to pay it forward. Exactly. But yeah, I think there's, there was. a scarcity [00:37:00]of women at the top. And they thought that, yeah, and I heard this from a conversation I just had on this podcast.
[00:37:07] And this woman said she was the head of visual effects at Warner brothers. Mm-hmm she was the VP for quite a while. And she said, they made them go on this retreat. And this one time there was all these wo all the women were in one group, somehow mm-hmm . And one of the executives turned to her, uh, that, that was in that group and said, you know, I just didn't grow up.
[00:37:25] There wasn't any sports or anything. So I didn't grow up going, we have to work towards this championship and win together. I, when, when I grew up, because, you know, title IX just passed in the seventies. So she was like, I grew up with, I need to get my work done and do it well, kind of on our own. And I was like, you know what?
[00:37:42] That makes so much sense. That might have been some of what was going on that oh yeah. Yeah. I never thought of it that way. Yeah. That we weren't being raised in the culture. Of working towards something together, whether it be team or theater or a movie. Yeah. Cause all of those are collaborative [00:38:00] things and I did grow up playing sports mainly because I forced it like my me and two of my friends started the soccer team at my high school in the eighties.
[00:38:10] Wow. I grew up in Mexico city just so you know. So my family moved down there when I was one and I came back to the us when I was 19, but there wasn't a women's team. Mm-hmm when we got there in high school. And I had been playing only since I was eight. Wow. Like just randomly on the, you know, at lunch with all the boys mm-hmm and when my friend Lynette Rivera, and neither of us can remember the third person, but the two of the, two of us with this other third person, we literally bugged on a daily basis.
[00:38:35] The men's soccer coach for two years until he let us start a women's team. And that was 84, 85, I wanna say mm-hmm and we then started and we then also begged and got them to start the softball team. So. Those are that's the world kind of, I came from where we saw the fruits of working together on a mission and then getting it [00:39:00] and then doing it.
[00:39:01] And I can only imagine when she said that I'm like, I guess if I didn't have that, I would, I would think of things differently. Cause if you watch men, they do mentor other men. Yeah. They do. It's this culture mm-hmm of doing that. And I think that's because they've always had the culture of a sports team or something else when you look
[00:39:21] James: at that's really interesting.
[00:39:23] Yeah. Yeah. I never thought of
[00:39:24] Cris: that. I haven't. I was like, oh, that makes so much sense. Cause why, why would you do it the other way? Right. I think that's part of why we're, I'm seeing, especially in younger women a much more let's support each other and collaborate. It might have something to do. with title.
[00:39:40] I, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:39:41] James: You know? Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Anyway, we often, you know, in our camera teams, we always seem to have women in the department because it's a good balancing. And the last movie that we did, we had two in our department and then there was one in, um, the department and [00:40:00] they were great.
[00:40:01] I, I told them one time, I said, it's amazing to me to see you guys humping over all this stuff. And it being completely natural. Yeah. And no, one's saying, oh, are
[00:40:10] Cris: you okay? Oh, that's cool. And yeah, I want, I wanna see a balanced just behind the scenes too, you know, because I think we all work better that way too.
[00:40:19] Yeah. There's, there's a nice balance of energy that way. Exactly. I think on a set. Exactly. Okay. So more recently been a digital workflow, workflow consultant. And describe what that entails. Yeah. And how did that start? See.
[00:40:31] James: So when Roger and I were first together, I was script supervisor. He was a DP. We were, we actually met on a movie.
[00:40:40] So it was nice because we were friends during the movie. So our relationship is basically based on work and friendships. So when we're in the middle of something personal and then something work comes up, we just flip over to work. It's actually makes us very boring. But anyway, so we, for a while I [00:41:00] continued scripting, but because the script is really the director's choice, there would be times when he would be working on one movie and I'd be working on another and we decided we just wanted to be together.
[00:41:10] So I agreed that I would stop scripting for a while, which was a very, very, very hard decision. Who am I then? Blah, blah, blah. So I was with him, but I can't not do things. So because I have this technical background and I know so much about camera, I ended up doing it all behind the scenes and. Overseeing dailies.
[00:41:31] This was film days and I knew the labs and then making sure we had what we needed, but it would take the production several weeks to understand why I was there and I didn't have a title or anything. And I wasn't on the call sheet. And it was, it wasn't fun at all, but I couldn't not do anything. So then at one point we realized I should just have a title.
[00:41:59] [00:42:00] So I was a part of the film because sometimes people could, you know, turn around and it, it was not pleasant, but we still did the same thing, but we had to figure out a title. And we figured what we do is very different the way we work, because there're two of us, the fact that I interact with visual effects a lot, because visual effects always wants things shot a certain way.
[00:42:22] And of course, oftentimes the DP doesn't want it shot that way, but there's always a way to figure out, obviously they need what they need. There is a way to shoot it, that they get what they want and the DP gets what they want. So rather than have that clash on set, I always work with them right from the start.
[00:42:38] What do we need? How do we do this? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And then of course I do the dailies cuz they're of a big concern to Roger and I am the person that deals with production the whole time. So we said, okay, well let's just do the digital workflow because that is something that they understand, but that isn't all I do.
[00:42:59] [00:43:00] And I, but I do. I come in once we figure out what we're shooting on, how we're shooting it. And I, I talk with the lab. I talk about what the steps are. I talk to the studio. What are the deliverables? Um, I talk about, is there a safety area? Is there not? What's the resolution when you shoot digitally, you you're working with the cards we call 'em mags.
[00:43:23] So you have to figure out. How many mags you need, because you need to know the turnaround. Cuz we send the mags either we send them to, to them or we put 'em on a shuttle drive. So then they have to go and quarantine so we can't touch them. So we have to know until the LTO the backups made. So we need to know that we have enough.
[00:43:44] So we have to figure out how much we're shooting cuz with every director that's different. Although I would say basically we shoot a lot less than some people do. And then during the shoot I'm watching the dailies and I'm coming [00:44:00] back on set and talking to Roger, talking to the director. If I saw something, talking to visual effects to double check something.
[00:44:06] So I'm keeping track of that. And then the post super comes in at one point I'm, I'm working with them on the visual side. Um, and I, and I follow through all of that even through to the post because I've already talked with the finishing producer, they call it now the, the di. Producer, um, about what the resolution of the di is, what we're making out of it and how, how we're gonna schedule it.
[00:44:30] And all of that, it really came about as what in the world can we call what I do? And so, in a way it's an easy one. I mean, because I do do that, I, I don't know what you'd call the rest, but, and I like it because also if we have an issue, cuz when we shot 1917, we were shooting on a prototype camera. It had it.
[00:44:53] Released yet. So there were a few bugs in it. So we were, it was frightening, but we, but it was such a great [00:45:00] camera. So, um, it was the mini LF and
[00:45:02] Cris: that's what I wanna
[00:45:03] James: use. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's a great camera. It's a really great camera. And, um, we ended up, we were kind of beta testing it, so we found some of the problems and one of the problems was in a port and it affected a day because then I saw it.
[00:45:20] I mean, it was very hard to see, we had a very good timer that could see these tiny things. So then I went through the steps of, okay, let's check this, let's check that, you know, how can we fix what we've done already? And it took us three days to figure out what, where the problem was. Cause you know, you don't know whether it's the camera, whether it's the rig, whether it's the processing.
[00:45:42] So that kind of detective work is something because I also, I work with our departments, electric rep and camera and. Find out what they need, you know, how are you guys doing? Oh, you need that equipment? Let me go check to make sure that it's coming in or, oh, did you not get enough crew? Okay, I'll go [00:46:00] talk to them.
[00:46:00] Somebody didn't get paid overtime. I'll go talk to them. So it's just all that other stuff that comes up in movies that has to be dealt with or what we're doing next week, what we need, I deal with as well as the digital
[00:46:13] Cris: workflow. I have to tell you that what you're after hearing your entire answer, I really think you should be, have a producer title somewhere in there.
[00:46:21] That's it's my opinion on what I just heard
[00:46:24] James: on empire of light. I did get associate producer credit.
[00:46:27] Cris: Okay. For our listeners who don't mm-hmm know what di means or somebody asked you, because in, in old terms you would just say color, correct? Correct. Yes. Or something to
[00:46:39] James: that effect. The di is a digital intermediate.
[00:46:43] So basically in the old days you took the negative. You timed, you graded the negative for the color shifts and all of that and made the answer print. Then you made an intermediate, a CRI or an inter negative, [00:47:00] and then you made the prints off of that. Now you take your cut, you bring it in digitally. And you're working within this digital platform.
[00:47:08] And you, the reason why you need to grade is if you see a film, that's a shot, a scene that's really red. And then you cut to something that happens to be yellow. You've got an image you're gonna see the color differently, depending what color it's coming afterwards. So you just blending it to, to make it work.
[00:47:31] You know, maybe you bring down the yellow a little bit or whatever to make it not have a pop, not a jump from one to one. So, because we tend not to do. Things in post. There are other people that in the di process might be hi, hiding lights or hiding this and all of that. And we try to shoot it in camera as much as we can.
[00:47:52] But the di is basically now, because things are released to theaters. If you remember that [00:48:00] on a digital cinema package, which instead of a print. So that goes to that, or you make your other deliverables. I know people do it differently for us because we're coming from that film background. We're making a, a P three, which is the color space, digital, intermediate, and that becomes our master.
[00:48:19] So then when we go to another color space for television can be rec 7 0 9. When we go to. We're gonna match it because it's so slightly different. The colors we respond slightly differently will match it to what we consider our master, which is the di that's what we do.
[00:48:35] Cris: okay. No, that's cool. I just wanted, in case someone didn't know what di yeah, exactly.
[00:48:40] So are there things that you've learned that help make a film them filmmaking process smoother? What should I be thinking about or be aware of as I get closer? Yeah. To getting my future film,
[00:48:52] James: I think prep is so important. And I think you talked about, oh, you're gonna do storyboards. I think storyboards are really important because what [00:49:00] it does is it makes you focus on that scene and figure out what's important.
[00:49:03] Why is that scene there? Oh, it's because it's telling us this. And then when you go to shoot it. Drop it, if you have to, because on the day having the actor in the corner actually makes a lot more sense or something like that. Mm-hmm . But then you know that actually though, the key moment is this and that you'll get that.
[00:49:23] And I think this is kind of a sideway of answering this question, but I think it's so important not to feel that you have to cover everything, to give you all the options in the end, because if you have less to actually shoot, you can take more time in shooting it. And I also think because cinema is a visual medium.
[00:49:44] Use cinema and don't rely always on dialogue because the strongest cinema or motion picture is when you know something because of the frame. Some, I mean, dialogue, yes is also important. But if you [00:50:00] also are emphasizing a point by visual, it's much more visceral in the viewer. And we worked with Benicio Del Toro and Sakari, who's a wonderful actor.
[00:50:12] Mm-hmm and the script was quite good, but he would often, and I've never seen another actor do it quite like this. He'd often go up to and say, I don't think I need this dialogue here. I think I can do it on my face. And by golly, he could, and it made it much stronger because it wasn't overly stating it.
[00:50:33] So I think that's important. I think find collaborators be, choose who you're going to work with and. Be sure that they're working, that they've got your back basically, because it's a hard job and you don't want someone going on a different road. So have a producer that yes. Is working with whoever's supplying the money.
[00:50:57] Yes, that's important. But it's also [00:51:00] trying to get your vision on screen. So if you say, I, I absolutely need this for the scene, their first reaction. Isn't no, there's no money going, but what are you trying to do with that? Oh, can you do it this way? So, you know, having that kind of backup is great and also communicating with.
[00:51:21] Crew that you've chosen is important so that they feel a part of it. So they're gonna do that extra mile for you. That's gonna be so helpful in the long run.
[00:51:31] Cris: Do the cuz you got you've guys have worked with some pretty well known directors. Do they all do that? Do the Coen brothers do that? Do the Sam talk to the crew?
[00:51:41] Like get everybody on their, um, side. Yes.
[00:51:44] James: Uh, in different ways. But yes, the Cohens are very, um, collaborative, but they're also very strong in what they want, but they will have like weekly production meetings where they talk about where it's going and they will say, [00:52:00] listen, I know that you want a red paint in this set rather than the green that we already have.
[00:52:06] We're really low on this budget. Is it possible to do it with a green? But if you tell me there's a reason for the red, that's fine, but, and being really upfront as to why, you know, what their concerns are. and in 1917, that was amazing because of what it was. We had to plan it way in advance. We didn't even build the sets till we knew what the moves were, because we would then have to build a trench.
[00:52:31] And if we had to go around to a front shot or something, we needed a side trench right there. So we could come around to the firm, but because we had it all laid out and because it was basically in these huge takes, covering a lot, we needed every department there. We would have, we shot the 1st of April.
[00:52:50] And in November, I remember sitting at a meeting with this schematic in front of me and looking up and seeing a prop person there, a wardrobe person there, a person that they're a makeup person [00:53:00] there. And I've never had that experience before where they've had their input so early. And it definitely, you could see that, but yes, and Sam does collaborate with the different departments and making sure that they know what you're thinking is really helpful.
[00:53:16] But everybody works in different ways. I
[00:53:18] Cris: was just curious, cuz that's such a, I love that piece of advice. Mm-hmm and I was just wondering how, how that gets translated with some of the, the directors you've worked with. So thank you for,
[00:53:29] James: well, I think this is just a tiny little thing, but if you come on the set and you say good morning by to people by name, what?
[00:53:36] Because you are the director, that's huge because I've worked on sets when the directors just walk in and they don't, they'll only maybe talk to key people, but not other people. And that makes such a difference. And when we, um, this isn't from the director's viewpoint, but when we were working with Olivia and empire, she's just so amazing.
[00:53:56] She just is normal, regular, and she's [00:54:00] great to work with. And I was going out of the set one day to pee and she was standing outside. There was a little platform and she was having a cigarette with a third grip in a deep conversation about something. And I thought, you know, I've never seen that. With an actor of her level, because oftentimes they never introduced to the third grip, but that's great.
[00:54:23] Yeah. Cause because as a director, you are setting the tone of the set. Oh the choose your ad carefully too. You know, that is setting the tone that you want on the set.
[00:54:34] Cris: What attracts you to a project or a director or those the same thing to you? I don't know. And do you need to feel invested in the story and or the director to
[00:54:44] James: work on the project?
[00:54:45] Oh, absolutely. Um, the first thing is the story granted, if it's a director that, that, you know, we've worked with many times, we're going to read that story wanting to really like it. But the first thing is the story. The story has to draw us [00:55:00] in and because that's what it's about. And why do you wanna spend so many months working on something that doesn't speak to you?
[00:55:08] So. if there's a story that you really like, the next step is you have to talk to the director because the director may see it as a Southern Gothic horror film, but you see it as something completely different. And so if you are going for two different things, then it's only fair to part where it weighs at that point.
[00:55:31] But it's mainly story. Yes. A lot of times it is director, but, um, which is sometimes difficult because sometimes you get a script and they say, oh yeah, yeah, no, it's not finished yet. I mean, cuz we've also started films that with scripts that weren't finished and not as a disaster right there, but it's definitely story.
[00:55:47] Oh cool. You've
[00:55:48] Cris: worked with some of the best known directors in the business. Mm-hmm the Colin brothers, Sam Menes, Deville. Uh, how has that shaped you as an artist, as you know, what have you learned from them?
[00:55:58] James: I think everybody has a different [00:56:00] way of seeing things and, and you learn something from everyone and Sam is amazing with story.
[00:56:06] He's just really great. With story and, and, and watching him keep the story in his head is great. Denise is also wonderful with story, and he's also quite adventuresome sometimes, visually like in, um, in, uh, prisoners, which was the first movie that we worked with him. We were shooting in one day, we were outside the house, we were shooting something and he goes, there's a tree push into the bark of the tree.
[00:56:32] And that seemed very weird. We were way behind, really weird. Why do you want that? But he wa he knew that he wanted that. So we did that, and it's a wonderful shot in the film because it's very ominous. There's no reason for it to be there, but it just pushes into this tree. So we learn from him, think outside the box and do something, visual that in a way, because it's so doesn't fit [00:57:00]anything.
[00:57:00] It's actually quite unnerving. Yeah. And the Cohens in their. Knowing exactly what the script is ahead of time. And they're working on storyboards, but using storyboards more as a way to learn further about the script and then their incredible ability to be on the set and realize, oh no, we'll play it in one.
[00:57:23] And is also amazing. Cuz we did something in, um, Sakari where we had a high wide shot just for some cars coming into the compound. And then we were gonna cover Josh and Emily in their dialogue down there. But when we did the pull up, they got out of the car and they continued, they did in tiny little specs in frame, they talked, they did all their dialogues.
[00:57:49] So then afterwards we go, okay, so now we're doing the coverage. He goes, no, I think it works in that. And to have the courage of his conviction was pretty amazing because you know, he does have. [00:58:00] The studio watching the dailies and all of that and, and to have your, the courage of your convictions and then therefore go for the shot and then have more time to do the other shot that you really wanted to do anyway.
[00:58:12] But yeah, we learned from every director, I mean, and also because every film is just different situations that, um, you think something's not possible. And then you find out it
[00:58:24] Cris: is well it's, it's about manufacturing, those dreams, right. Making it impossible possible. right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, uh, so my film alone girl is a coming a middle-aged story wrapped in an unromantic comedy where I take the normal romcom and turn it on its head.
[00:58:39] What advice would you give me as I plan out to make
[00:58:42] James: my film? Well, I do think what I said about collaborate collaborators, finding collaborators and using the prep period. To sort of enrich the script because the costume person might have some great ideas on, on how to portray something. [00:59:00] And you, you had also asked at one point, um, about whether something that's funny in dailies.
[00:59:09] Yeah. That was coming up.
[00:59:10] Cris: Yeah. Yeah. That's coming up. Yeah. So, so I guess we can fold these two in, so Spielberg was took part in a panel that the academy gave this year for all the no nominated directors. And the moderator asked about directing comedy. And Spielberg said that if the crew laughs at the performance on set, that means it won't be funny in post.
[00:59:32] And I was wondering what your opinion was on that because you've been around.
[00:59:36] James: I agree. And I don't, I'm not exactly sure why that is. Is it because it needs to be cut to fit the story? And what you're seeing is something. As a whole, but I know that I've seen, I've been involved in things that seemed so funny at the time.
[00:59:53] And there was one thing that I had to look at the dailies a couple of times, and I just was howling and I thought, [01:00:00] oh, this is a really bad sign. And it wasn't as funny in the final cut, which I think because it had to serve the purpose of the story. So it couldn't be as long because it was a lot of ad living.
[01:00:11] That was just very funny. I, I think comedy is very difficult, very, because there's a ma there's a lot of technical and, and I, I don't wanna say formulas, but ways that you have to set up reveal. So I, I think it's difficult and I don't really. Why that happens, but I have heard that before, and I've seen it before that if it's funny on the day, it's not that funny afterwards.
[01:00:38] Cris: I, I, I like hearing these things because it prepares me to understand that maybe if, if, if the crew is laughing at a certain take, Hey, let's just get another one just to see, you know, like, but I know, like I do know, so one of my short films is called Boze Nova, and it's a, uh, it's about a clown. Who's a Jilo.
[01:00:57] Yeah, of course. Yes. And [01:01:00] there's a very funny moment if I do say so myself, and I'm only saying that because it always gets a laugh. I'm not just saying that. Cuz I laugh, but we, I mean, if, if you were to look at the raw and I would extend past where I cut. Yeah. You would hear the entire crew lose it laughing.
[01:01:18] Oh really? Yeah. So that's why I got curious about it. Mm-hmm although I do think it's the kind of broad thing. I'm not gonna give it away in case you wanna. Yeah, watch it, but it's the kind of broad take that. And it wasn't an extended thing. It's just a moment Uhhuh that I think might be a little different than what, like a Judd aile throwing things in to yeah.
[01:01:40] To make their app keep going and going and going. You know, although I tend to, it, it like in that script, whatever, let's get the words. Let's get it the way it's written. Let's get a couple takes. Mm-hmm and then I ask the actors do one just,
[01:01:55] James: yeah. However you want for
[01:01:56] Cris: yourself. Yeah, yeah. For yourself. And then we're done.
[01:01:58] Mm-hmm and [01:02:00] oftentimes, like I have my friend James in there and you'll see, there's a, he plays the bad clown. Who's it's a revenge. It's a, it's a clown Western. So, you know, um, at the heart of it, there's a Rav revenge going on, but the Brad clown is my friend James who's like, and he, he went off on this Adlib rant specifically for me that I put in the film because it made me laugh so hard.
[01:02:22] And he's like, he was talking about the, his wife and he's like, you know, and we're thinking about getting a cat and I hate cats, but she wants a cat and you, and because I own cats, Uhhuh that it was so funny to me. and I put it in there. Kick laughs cause of his perform. And that was not written in the script.
[01:02:38] Yeah. Yeah. Not one word that was written, but I love being open to that to getting it the way it's in the script, because you never know which one's really gonna service if the actor is that is they own the character at that point. Right. So they, they might show you something you didn't see when you were writing it.
[01:02:56] Exactly.
[01:02:56] James: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think another thing [01:03:00] before starting a film that's really important is don't start a film with a script that's too long. Mm-hmm like without 150 pages, don't do it. Cuz you might as well when you're insane mind because you won't be when you're shooting. Pull out the things decide, what should we get
[01:03:17] Cris: pulled out mine.
[01:03:18] Mine's 107 in case you were curious.
[01:03:20] James: Oh, good. Oh good. perfect. Got a lot to work with then.
[01:03:25] Cris: yeah. Um, it's on its 28th draft, so I've done a lot of work on it. It's ready. Shoot. Oh, wow. So, oh, cool. Yeah, I've talked about that quite a bit on the podcast. It's in the rewrite it's in really digging in. And so when it comes to the anatomy of a scene, what should I keep in mind as I'm directing?
[01:03:43] And I'm really interested cuz you were a script supervisor. So , you probably have to look at this a lot that will help an actor's performance or the written word of a scene kind of shine in the edit bay. Well, I
[01:03:52] James: think, um, you know, having done the work ahead of time in knowing what that scene is there for, and [01:04:00] is this scene, the importance of this scene that we reveal that she never had a home.
[01:04:07] This is the first time we learned or is the importance of the scene. That we reveal he has a new car. I, I don't know. But knowing that ahead of time, one, you can explain to the actors, which I think helping the actors see your vision is really important. And being able to tell them what it is that you want from this scene.
[01:04:32] You know, I don't really care about the conversation in the beginning. It's really at this point before you leave, that's what we're building up to. And I, I think that's helpful for an actor to know. And, and again, though, actors are very different, you know, and you have to figure out right away what an actor needs.
[01:04:52] We, um, have oftentimes worked with an actor that didn't wanna rehearse. Didn't want to talk about it. Wanted to [01:05:00] go on there, hear what it was about, and then go for it. And. Playing against an actor that wanted to rehearse. And also that maybe the first actor is good on takes one to three. The other ones need six to seven to get to that point.
[01:05:15] And that's seeing that ahead of time and identifying that then, you know, I need both of their reactions. Maybe I, I wanna make sure that I cover it in such a way that I do have, I can make singles work if need be BEC because you know, you wanna get the best from your actors. So you have to figure out how it is that they need
[01:05:36] Cris: to work.
[01:05:36] Do you, so if an actor, like if I'm working with actors that I've never worked with, is it good for me to possibly reach out to people who have worked with those actors just to find out some of that that's
[01:05:47] James: really good. That's good. And then if you talk with them and if you will, you get a rehearsal period with.
[01:05:56] Because if you get a rehearsal period, it
[01:05:58] Cris: kind of tells you, yeah. I mean, I [01:06:00] think, I think we were gonna have a couple days, I don't know, it's not gonna be a big one. This is only, we've got it at 5 million and most women, if you've noticed, we we're kind of relegated to our first film has to be 50 to a hundred grand.
[01:06:13] And part of the point I'm trying to make, we're trying to get this made is that, that we get it made for the budget that I can make it well. Oh, that's great. Yeah. So during, I'm gonna, we're gonna switch gears and talk about, okay. The, your current, um, obsession. I always say, I only say that because I know we've been emailing back and forth about it.
[01:06:33] The pandemic, you and Roger embarked on a new adventure and started a podcast team deacons mm-hmm from our emails. I get the sense that it was your idea. Was it? Yeah. And how did it come about? We have
[01:06:44] James: always done a lot of outreach to students and everything there. Something wonderful about being with.
[01:06:51] People starting out because they've got the passion that we've got, then we wanna maintain. So it feeds us. And also we wanna help 'em. So [01:07:00] we have a website that I, I also program and set up and it allows us to answer questions and all of that, when we were doing 1917, when we were, I'm not a podcast person, I don't really listen to 'em.
[01:07:14] I don't have the time. And if I were to listen to them, I'd be doing something else. And then I have to, oh, I missed that. I've gotta go back. I would just take so much time. But anyway, we were doing a lot of Q and a for 1917. And afterwards we come off the stage and we sort of get mobbed by a lot of students that would ask these questions.
[01:07:34] All of which were the same questions. So I thought about it and I said to Roger, I said, Roger, who didn't know what podcasts are? I said, there is such a thing as a podcast. I said, I think if we answered those questions, we could just say, Listen to the podcast and we wouldn't have to do this all the time and it would be out there and he goes, oh, okay.
[01:07:53] Maybe I started, I had no idea. Cause I'm visual. I know visual. I didn't know sound. And so [01:08:00] I had to, I just started talking to people. What are podcasts? What are they? Da da. And I knew that I had all this Adobe software, so I knew I had one of 'em did sound so that's I figured, okay, let's give it a shot. So we started it.
[01:08:13] We started in January and I actually started releasing in April because I had this concept because I'm an idiot. I had this concept I'm releasing twice a week. every, somebody said, James, you know, so twice a room. I know
[01:08:28] Cris: I I'm dying doing it once a week right
[01:08:30] James: now. I know. I know. I know. I mean, it was also, I didn't know what I was doing, so I would get up in the morning.
[01:08:37] I would work all day long. We would do maybe a recording, but I would also work all day long till the. Three hours to working on cutting and learning, cutting and learning sound and learning how to take things out or put things in. And it was such a learning curve for me. I finally got it because in Adobe addition, you can [01:09:00] get a visual representation of the sound, the spectograph or something.
[01:09:04] And then I got it. Oh, give me something to look at. And, um, so Roger at first was okay. You know, in the first couple are about specific like composition, all that, but then we started talking to people and it got really interesting to us. And a friend of ours called me up and said, it's just cuz we used to do these big before the pandemic, big dinners, like 16 at a dinner and I'd cook and we'd have these great conversations.
[01:09:31] He says, it's just like Eves dropping on one of those dinner conversations. And that became my model, basically that it's a conversation and it was. Really interesting. It was really nerve wracking in the beginning cuz we didn't know how to do it and, and work private people. And you know, we have to talk to people that we have to talk to, but then doing this for pleasure.
[01:09:53] But then it got really interesting and it was interesting to see how you would talk to people that do the same [01:10:00] thing, but they approach it differently. But then the base is the same. The collab idea of collaboration is the same and, and their passion is there. So it was, it really fed us during the, um, pandemic one.
[01:10:13] It gave us something to do. We weren't sure we would do it again, but then we missed it. So we're going back to it. It's just, it's not gonna be twice a week cause I just I've got so much else going on. There's no way, but yeah, it was a good project to do. You know, and I learned a lot about podcasts, but I'm still not really a podcast
[01:10:32] Cris: person.
[01:10:33] I think you're more of a podcast person than, you know, um, you have a wonderful voice here, just so you know, and that's not just me saying it. We that's like all of like me and my friends were like, I love James's voice I was a surprised that I got a response. Cause I was like, I'm just gonna send an email out just for you now.
[01:10:52] And I guess I assumed that you had someone doing the work for you because you're you're, you know, Roger and [01:11:00] James deacons and are busy. So it, it really made me, you made me smile like super big when you responded. Um, because it was, it, it was just a shot in the dark for me. Right? I think my friend David, Boland's the one who mm-hmm clued me new and he's a DP.
[01:11:15] He's a very talented, young up and coming Canadian D. And he, but he posted it on his, on his, um, Instagram and like some screenshot of, of, I don't know what guested and I went and looked it up and I was addicted and it got me through some rough, rough patches of, oh, of me trying to get this made. There was the two episode part you did with John Killick.
[01:11:40] Yeah. That was just he's so amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And it was so great to hear cuz he's such a nuts and bolts. Yeah. Yeah. Independent film producer. That it was exactly somehow it was exactly what I needed to hear at that time. Cuz I was in a very low point of thinking I'd found some money and it just wasn't [01:12:00] going.
[01:12:00] Right. Yeah. And I realized that mm-hmm cause it's a marriage, like you said, the collaborators. Yeah. And I'd realized I didn't wanna be with those collaborators, but would I be insane to. And I decided that, yeah, mm-hmm I had to break from that. Good for you. It wasn't gonna, the film I wanted to make, wasn't gonna come out of that relationship and mm-hmm so I just a, I just wanna thank you guys for making that decision mm-hmm uh, but to find out that you have the same spirit I do.
[01:12:28] I think we've got the same spirit that you're like, oh, I'm gonna figure this out because I too am doing this on my own mm-hmm so I was like, oh, this is great. I can, you know, we can bounce ideas off each other which is cool. A kindred spirit . So I do have a question from, um, I, sometimes I, depending on if I know the person, a person who really likes someone I'm talking to, and I have a friend who is also a, a fan of your podcast, his name's bill Pruitt mm-hmm and he wanted to know what's been the most [01:13:00] surprising thing you've learned from a guest on your podcast.
[01:13:03] James: We always learned something because we have an idea of what we're going to talk about. , but then we let it. It's like when you make a shopping list, you don't have to refer to it again. So we let it go where it goes. But I think there's always something. When we talked to the Russian director, Andre FEV, that was wonderful because that was, we've always admired his movies.
[01:13:29] We didn't know him at all. And I managed to get in touch and asked whether didn't think they'd want to, whether he and his DP would want to, and to talk to that man and finding out he's such a open gentle guy. And when we, in particular, we asked, cuz everybody always talks about Atlanta. One of those movies, there's a white horse, she's in a, in a, a train.
[01:13:56] And she goes by and there's a road intersection and there's a dead [01:14:00] white horse. And we said, everybody says the meaning that it's white. Is it because of this or that? What, why did you do it? And he said, because it would show up better against the tarmac there really is no other reason. And just talking to people like that, that have done such extraordinary work and you realize they're coming from the same place, you know, they're, it's not some, they're just trying to tell a story.
[01:14:25] And I don't, I can't think, I mean, we're always surprised because we always learned something from them that we didn't know why, why they chose a project or something. And interesting. I'm sorry, I don't have a better answer for that, cuz I I'm sure if I looked at the list of the podcast and go, oh, and that one, that was a surprise in this one.
[01:14:42] But I think the thing that has actually surprised us overall is the amount of passion that everybody has. It's across the board and the it's it's made us understand why we do what we do, because we hear that passion in other [01:15:00] people's accounts. And we realize, yeah, that makes sense. So the fact that everybody has that passion that we've chosen to talk to is
[01:15:11] Cris: pretty cool.
[01:15:11] That is cool. I just, I love having these conversations. Yeah. Every time I have one, I, I get off and I just, the rest of the day I'm smiling. Cause yeah. Of all the connection that's been made yeah. Between two artists, right? Yeah.
[01:15:25] James: It
[01:15:26] Cris: is good. It's really good. I know that team deacons is coming up for second season drop.
[01:15:31] Yeah. Which I'm super excited about. can you tell us more about that when it's dropping and anything else that you wanna
[01:15:36] James: shout out? We're putting the first episode of six season two on Wednesday next Wednesday, the seventh, actually. And then we'll do it weekly on Wednesdays. So it's exciting that because we've been.
[01:15:49] Doing it for a couple months. It's just that I've been so busy. I haven't been able to pull it all together. So it's great finally, to get these voices out because yeah, that's good. [01:16:00] And you know, we are also working on, um, exhibitions for the book byways. Roger's still photography and we've got a, a, um, exhibition in Santa Monica on the 17th of September.
[01:16:13] Oh, it's I wanna come. Can I go? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The RSVP on the Instagram, there's an RSVP link in the bio. Okay. Just, it's just RSVP. But yeah, it's really interesting because it's not only from the book, but it's some other photographs that he's taken that have never been seen before. Oh, amazing. But we're doing that.
[01:16:30] And then we go to Europe because we're also doing one in an exhibition in Italy and in PO. So it's just trying to get all that together, cuz I've never put on an exhibition before and been involved in that. So it's actually a lot of work, huh? Wow. That's amazing. And then we're dealing with the fact that empires releasing soon empire of light.
[01:16:51] So we've gotta go to TIFF and it's I think opening the London film festival. So we gotta be there and we'll be doing some things like [01:17:00] that. Oh wow. So I thought when we were doing empire and it was a tough movie to make, we looked at each other and went, should we take a break? And I said, you know what?
[01:17:11] I've got an idea. Let's just do the exhibitions in the Autum and take time off. That's hardly time off. I'm not very good at figuring out time off it it's a huge amount of work, but, and also then we decided to do the podcast again because we kind of missed talking to people. We're busy.
[01:17:28] Cris: Aw, I'm excited to hear who you, who you've got on.
[01:17:31] Yeah. This season. And, uh, I'm excited to go to that, to the exhibition. Oh, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Absolutely. It's been such of fun. Oh, good. thank you so much for tuning into bliss. Finster. If any of these conversations are resonating with you, please subscribe on apple podcast, Google podcast, or wherever you get your podcast, you can find bliss will spinster on Instagram and Twitter and through our website, bliss will spinster.com.
[01:17:55] Again, thanks so much for joining me on this journey and until next week go find your [01:18:00] happy, happy.