Meet David Casey! David is a Showrunner, Director, and TV executive. He lives in Detroit and is an award-winning filmmaker who specializes in directing, writing, showrunning, show development, and leading logistics for large-scale teams in challenging environments around the world from preproduction through post.
Meet David Casey! David is a Showrunner, Director, and TV executive. He lives in Detroit and is an award-winning filmmaker who specializes in directing, writing, showrunning, show development, and leading logistics for large-scale teams in challenging environments around the world from preproduction through post. Much of David’s work focuses on high-impact storytelling in travel, social justice, natural history, adventure, and environmentalism. David has executive produced and showrun over 100 hours of television and his work has been seen on Netflix, Intel, Discovery, Animal Planet, History Channel, MTV, Paramount+, and Amazon to name a few. David’s extensive showrunner and executive producer credits include the globally produced Coyote Peterson: Brave the Wild, Ocean Warriors from Executive Producers Robert Redford and the late Paul Allen, and long-running Ice Cold Gold for Animal Planet, which he created. On the executive side, David he has held positions at History, Moxie Pictures, Wilderness Productions, ITVS, Cineflix Productions, and Vice President Al Gore’s Current TV. David and I met when I was brought on to Season 3 of Ice Cold Gold as a Story Producer and a friendship quickly sparked. I’m super excited to share our conversation with you all. We chat about the importance of saying yes when you’re leading and hiring to your weaknesses, why collaboration is the heart of elevating your own work, and how it’s possible to be intentional with the choices you make with your career if advocacy for the environment and human rights are important for you.
Learn more about the Blissful Spinster Podcast and connect with Cris on the website at: https://www.blissfulspinster.com
17. David Casey - Showrunner, Director, and TV Executive
[00:00:00] Cris: Hi, and welcome to Blissful Spinster. This week's guest is showrunner director and TV executive David Casey. David lives in Detroit and is an award-winning filmmaker who specializes in directing writing, showrun, show development, and leading logistics for large scale teams in challenging environments around the world.
[00:00:19] From pre-production through post. Much of David's work focuses on high impact storytelling and travel social. Natural history, adventure and environmentalism. David has executive produce and Showrun over a hundred hours of television, and his work has been seen on Netflix, Intel Discovery Animal Planet History Channel, mtv, Paramount Plus, and Amazon, just to name a few.
[00:00:44] David's extensive, executive producer and showrunner. Credits include the globally produced Coyote Peterson. Brave the. Ocean Warriors from executive producers Robert Redford and the late Paul Allen and the long running Ice Cold Gold for Animal Planet, which he also [00:01:00]created. And on the executive side, David has held positions at History, Moxi Pictures, Wilderness Productions, Itvs Sy Flick Productions, and he was the Vice President of Al Gore's current tv.
[00:01:11] David and I met when I was brought on to season three of Ice School Gold as a story producer and a friend. Quickly sparked. I'm super excited to share our conversation with you all. We chat about the importance of saying yes when you're leading and hiring to your weaknesses, why collaboration is the heart of elevating your own work and how it is possible to be intentional with the choices you make with your career if advocacy for the environment and human rights are important to you.
[00:01:37] So however you found this podcast, thank you for tuning in and please enjoy this week's episode. Hi David. How you doing? Hey Chris. How are. I'm good. Good to see you. Thanks for being on my podcast. You
[00:01:49] David: bet. Thank you for inviting me. I'm looking for, I've been looking forward to this since we talked. Oh.
[00:01:54] Cris: So I've been looking forward to it.
[00:01:55] Cause we haven't talked in many years, .
[00:01:57] David: No, we have not. Yeah. [00:02:00] But we continue to help each other all the time,
[00:02:02] Cris: so Yeah, we do. I, you know, I always just felt like a kindred spirit with you, like the first day I met you. Me too. So I wanna, I'm gonna start this the way I start all of my questions. And how did you, how did your journey start as a filmmaker?
[00:02:14] Uh, as a filmmaker
[00:02:15] David: and. TV person. I grew up in, um, Central Kansas, in a town called Hutchinson, Kansas, and I loved, I I just loved film. I think the first film I ever saw that made me want to do it was, Harold and Mod. I watched, I rented that movie and just fell in love with it. And I started it, you know, looking up how Ashby's story and finding out how that film was made, What an awkward, interesting film that was surprisingly mainstream.
[00:02:42] And then my high school, uh, my broadcast media and speech teacher, um, raised funds and won a grant for a media pod in the middle of our quad, which is basically a trailer with. A [00:03:00]bunch of VHS cameras, vhsc I think, and s VHS cameras and, uh, media 100. And she didn't know how to teach the class. She just let the kids teach the class, and we had to do the morning announcements, and I formed a production company.
[00:03:17] Called the Love Cats cuz I was a huge Cure fan and she gave me the keys to the trailer and I went in every weekend and made my own videos and recorded my friends and we were huge fans at the state on MTV and started our own pseudo like sketch comedy group. Making silly videos before the, before the morning announcements.
[00:03:39] And I just realized I, that's what I wanted to do. Wow. And so I went to, I went to Ku, University of Kansas and they did not have a film production department. Um, this was, I left in 98, the year that filmmaker named Kevin Wilmont started the film production department. Now Academy Award-winning Kevin Wilmont, uh, just won for screenplay, for Black Klansman [00:04:00] for Spike.
[00:04:00] But he, he came the year I left and I moved to New York and I went to NYU for a semester and I made donuts and saved enough money to go to NYU for a semester. And I decided if I liked it enough, after going to this continuing ed version of NYU for a semester, I would move back to New York and figure out how to make it work.
[00:04:20] So I just loved it. I loved telling stories through the moving image, and it's been a life goal sense, and I feel blessed to do this every. I really do. I think it's a very hard industry to get into and it takes a lot of tenacity and you have to like it more than you like making money or you know, doing what you do.
[00:04:41] And every decision in my life since then has been made to keep things on the rails and continuing to do what I do, including all of my relocations and everything, has just been finding ways to be able to make choices. I believe in. So that's kind of it in a
[00:04:58] Cris: nutshell. So you fell in love [00:05:00] with, it sounds like narrative film and shows.
[00:05:03] Mm-hmm. . But primarily, I know you from documentary side and we both have straddled both of the like, I mean, I've been in documentary as well. I think my journey to documentary was probably a little different. Than yours. Like it was unexpected completely for me, but I've gained so much. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:05:19] Quiet. I'm a much better storyteller now than if you'd met me in 1996 when I moved to LA with my exfil and my Northern exposure. But I mean, can you talk to me about that and. Was that a conscious choice or did you kind of wind up in DOC and then fall in love with it?
[00:05:37] David: I definitely the latter. When I moved to New York, I found this apartment through this new fangled website called New York Habitat, which is like the precursor to all the Zillows that you see today and the broker.
[00:05:51] Found out that I was going to NYU for film and he had an unlisted apartment in Little Italy that was owned by the script [00:06:00] supervisor for Law and Order. The long running script supervisor for law order, who's my, one of my many mentors, my first mentor. And so I would, so he also rented out his amazing apartment on Little, In Little Italy to, to films.
[00:06:13] To any films and commercials and TV shows. So I slept on his floor on a, in his big, one of his big studios on an air, um, on an arrow bed. And had to deflate it every morning before 7:00 AM and put it in a closet and get out. Cuz he, cuz as I'd be going down the stairs, there'd be crews setting up and taping, you know, gaffing the floors and getting things ready for whatever commercial or film or lawn order episode they were shooting.
[00:06:35] There. And so he helped me get in with Law and Order, and I was a writer's assistant off and on for about three years. My, my last year at Hunter College where I graduated, and then for a while, while I was doing my own thing, but I made the pivot the way many people did from. Scripted and narrative scripted TV and narrative film at around the turn of [00:07:00] century because we had all this digital media experience and there were so many kind of elder statesmen of scripted, a narrative that did not know how to use digital media.
[00:07:09] And actually were railing pretty hard against it. The debate around films, cellular versus digital at that time was really tenuous. And I, not coincidentally I was, I got the opportunity to experience Sydney Lu who shot hundred Center Street. He was one of the first people to shoot digital. With fire wire and cutting his own dailies on the street for that show.
[00:07:31] But so I was on Ilaw order and through this internship, one of Dick Wolf's assistants asked if I would, if I'd hadn't had any experience, and I had me 100 experience in high school. And so I. Gently lied that I knew how to cut Avid, and the age of 23 was insistent avid editor for this.com in Queens. And from there I was like, I have an avid, I can do whatever I want, but decided to use it.
[00:07:57] After nine 11, I was given [00:08:00] pretty much my avid as several Oh wow. As after I was laid off. And so I was like, Okay, I have six months of unemployment now I will. Put up my, wheres my goal was to direct, or sorry, to uh, edit a documentary by 25. And so I, on the mayor's list, there was a, um, young producer, director team that were putting together a documentary and I was like, Listen, I'll, I'll edit it for free cuz I have six months of unemployment.
[00:08:23] And, um, did, so put it together and it was turned out to be a kind of high profile doc. And from there I was off to the races, you know, directing my own documentaries, raising funds for my own own doc documentaries. And cutting them as best I could. But I do believe like at that time, like the early two thousands, there were so many people that went to film school that got into documentary work because they couldn't break through kind of the politics and bureaucracy of, of narrative film and scripted tv.
[00:08:53] And it was a long fight when in fact you could just pick up a camera and tell your own story. And so many people made that [00:09:00] choice. And then the couple that with the rise of like reality and nonfiction tv. And that's where I fell into it. I was working at Vice as an editor and, and Vice was coming up with MTV in their little offshoot called BBS tv and just saw that there was so many more opportunities, quicker stories with brevity that you could tell just with a camera and, and with your own editing system.
[00:09:23] Mm-hmm. . So that was it. I did just did not wanna fight through all of the crap. Having to go to the DJ training program or sit in a writer's room and just write notes for writers that you thought you were better than or probably were better than. I just didn't wanna do all that stuff. It just, it was too many politics and identity politics especially, and just did not wanna play those games.
[00:09:41] So, And
[00:09:42] Cris: I'm so interested cuz you, you've done everything you've, you've been. In the trenches, you've showrun your network executive. Like what is all that journey? The Kansas to New York, to la I know you lived in San Francisco area for a little bit, now you're in De Detroit. Like, talk about that and how that folds into your creative
[00:09:59] David: journey.
[00:09:59] Well, I, [00:10:00] um, after I did that documentary, um, when I inherited my. Have it in severance within a month of having a premier Walter Reed Theater in New York. Uh, my fiance, fiance, me at the time were living with my parents in Kansas City because my unemployment ran out and she was laid off as well. And it was at the time New York was going through a mini recession post nine 11, and I started waiting tables at this four star restaurant in Kansas City.
[00:10:27] And what I, and I worked at a relationship with the amazing chef there to create these. Tasting dinners in which we would have pre six meals made in which by that amazing four star chef and I would pitch my movies to them. Cause at the time there was no, there was no, you could not raise money unless you had an incredib investors involved and you had to have a direct line investment to them.
[00:10:50] There was no crowd funding available at that time. Bureaucratically, you couldn't. So I had to prove that I knew these. So I did these wine in food tasting dinners and I [00:11:00] raised money for my first feature film, which started out as this documentary about New York music scene. Cause I was very involved in like what was happening in New York in the early two thousands.
[00:11:11] So The Strokes and Interpol and the aa, and directed a music video for this group called the Walkman. And I realized that there was this amazing kind of gender bending party that came up at the exact same time as all these band bands did called Motherfucker. And it was this rock and roll party that just kept growing and growing.
[00:11:30] And each party they would've a live performance of a new band, and then they would have the best DJs in New York play. And it was put on by these amazing producers that were all very different, and they were all New Yorkers. One was this amazing cross dressing DJ named, uh, Michael T, this young hipster named D.
[00:11:49] She was the kind of the DFA influence dj, and then two producers and promoters. And so I thought that was like the, an amazing story about New York at that time. So I [00:12:00] followed the party for six months and put together this doc. And it premiered a Frameline in San Francisco, which is the biggest queer festival in the world, and met with the head of promos on air promos at current tv, which was out worth's company at the time.
[00:12:15] And that was my ambition. I wanted to work for a place like Current, which was doing really cool things, and they hired me to be, I am very, really ended up being the creative director for the channel. Which meant I did all the promos, cutting, shooting, directing, all the promos, and we had so much content and so many programs.
[00:12:33] I was making more content out of their content, you know, original productions of content than I ever did before, which is banging things out and trying a bunch of different ideas for music shows and, um, journalism, this amazing program called Vanguard that ended up being a launching pad for a bunch of journalists that are doing great things today.
[00:12:51] Like, um, Adam Ama Gucci. Mariana Zeller, who's now on in that geo where they're show trafficked. And I worked with, uh, [00:13:00] Christoff, um, oh, and Christoff Putzel and Laura Lang Loling was the head of the department. Just an amazing journalist and good friend too. Still is. They're all really good friends. But at the time, with all that I've done and accomplished it current, I was fortunate enough Adam, Ima Gucci asked me.
[00:13:14] Produce and direct an episode of Vanguard with him in Greenland. Um, he had this concept for a story in regard to Greenland's kind of proactive approach to the changing face of climate change. Largest island in the world with the largest ice sheet outside of Antarctica in the world. And they, they knew, and they had been seen since the late sixties that the ice was not melting through the, not freezing through the winter.
[00:13:38] And they knew climate change was coming. And so we told the story of, of this, this small country of less than 60,000 people, um, using, um, this scary opportunity to protect themselves, protect their indigenous rights, and frankly capitalize in a way that could protect their country. Which. We told that story in a [00:14:00] half hour and it just created this love for me for Greenland.
[00:14:03] And, um, literally within, you know, six months of doing that story of following Obama's election in 2008, currents tried to go for I p. And then laid off 125 people and I saw the ship sinking and was offered a, thankfully, somehow offered a job at History Channel in New York to be their, one of their creative directors and jumped at the chance to
[00:14:26] Cris: move back to New York.
[00:14:27] How did you end up on the sequel to Inconvenient An Inconvenient Truth. Because that was, that was an extension of some of
[00:14:33] David: that, right? Not re No, it was, it was adjacent. I, um, it was crazy, you know, after iHeart global warming with current, I had been, my goal was, I was just pitching stories around Greenland to anyone that would listen at the History Channel.
[00:14:47] And then I realized to the history channel, my greatest skill because I'd done so much at many other things, was to be a show runner, Especially being an editor. The best show runners, I think were once editors at some point, and. Left to, I started, [00:15:00] uh, the nonfiction department for a commercial production company called Moxi.
[00:15:03] Well, didn't start it, it was just fledgling. And I was one of the, I was the second hire and oversaw the department, both production and development, and pitched Animal Planet, this concept called, uh, that ended up being ice cold gold, because when I was in Greenland, Found a number of American prospectors and, and mining companies that were curious about the ore that was being revealed by melting ice.
[00:15:26] And so, um, at that time there were all these gold rush shows getting hits, and Animal Planet wanted to be in that game. And I pitched this idea and they're like, Listen, you know, Greenland, because it has, there's an inherent environmental story to this. We can do our own Gold Rush show, but for me it was a Trojan horse to bring.
[00:15:45] The narrative of climate change and ice mouth to a completely different audience. You know, so you have the gold rush people that don't even realize when they're watching Ice Cold Gold, that they're getting this subtext about actually what's happening in the world and what's happening to Greenland and what's happening in the Arctic.
[00:15:59] So [00:16:00] when I finished that, we did 28 hours in three years, I helped to found what became, you know, the Greenland Film Commission. And still to this day, I get calls all the. Because we brought our last season, we brought 35 people to Greenland for 11 weeks and produced 12 hours and 11 weeks. Uh, we had four fly camps and we're just darting all over the island and all the way up to 72 degrees north, which is crazy.
[00:16:24] I became an expert on how to make TV in Greenland. Mm-hmm. . And then I, I was introduced to a friend at the, uh, San Francisco Film Society to a young filmmaker named Sarah. Do. Who was the producer for, um, Bonnie Cohen and John Shank, who were just attached to do Inconvenience Equal. And Sarah and I became a very close because she has this crazy affinity for Iceland and she just did a film called SEER in the Unseen on Iceland, and most recently just directed a film that was the biggest sale at Sundances last year.
[00:16:59] Mm-hmm. called Fire [00:17:00] of Love for Nat Geo, um, Na Geo Films. But yeah, so Sarah. Came to me and said, Al wants to do Al Vice President, Al Gore wants to do a segment in Greenland and we don't know how to get there and how to do this. And so they came to me and I produced that segment with them and it. Amazing to, I, I worked with him and them and for 11 Days in the Lu at Greenland, which is my favorite city or favorite town in the entire world, a right on, uh, lu at the Jacob Chavin, um, ice, which is the largest ice in the world.
[00:17:31] But to be with him and to be. Telling that story and working with some of the most preeminent glaciologists in the world was incredibly full circle, considering in 2008 I went there for Al Gore's company current to, uh, to, to start that dialogue and to start that narrative. And I'll never forget the toasting al at the end of the shoot, just saying for me what this meant to be.
[00:17:53] Now, here with him having. Overlooking Ya Chavin and being there and meeting [00:18:00] incredible glass like Connie Stephan and taking him up to Camp Becky, which is just, you know, kind of like the Camp David for dialogue on climate change for some of the most preeminent thought builders and thinkers and leaders
[00:18:12] Cris: of the world.
[00:18:13] That's so cool. I get, it's such a nice circular. Thing you've had in your life. I agree. That moment now you and I did that. The way we met was Ice Cold
[00:18:23] Gold.
[00:18:23] David: Ice cold gold. Season three. Yeah. I just
[00:18:25] Cris: was like, You're a really interesting human being. I wanna be a friend with . And I could sense the creative like you were also this creative human being who was also working on a million things and wanted what you worked on to mean something and talk to me.
[00:18:42] Meeting me cuz I don't know what your, your thoughts were. Yeah, it
[00:18:45] David: was the same as, as you came in to the latter half of the season, I think it was 3 0 9 and you worked with Nick on that one. And it was a special episode because that location, Ofat was very precious to me. And fact of the [00:19:00] matter is, You can never convey to the rest of your team what matters to you all the time, no matter how many global notes you give or how hard hands on you are.
[00:19:10] So you just need to find people to get you. And you got me and we got each other. And yeah, to your point about having a number of irons in the fire, I think we identified with each other on that too, is that that's the thing about LA that I will, I grew frustrated by and shortly after the wrap of post on high school gold was one of the reasons why I left is because.
[00:19:30] LA does not appreciate the hustler. Mm. It doesn't, it's, you are a cog in a giant wheel, and if you intimate that, you might be different cogs in that wheel, or you might be a, you know, multihyphenate, unless you have tons of equity, whether it be financial or political, you are considered a threat. You're considered a threat.
[00:19:55] What do I do with this person? How do I, Because networking is everything in la and if you are [00:20:00] multihyphenate, what I, what? What am I to you and who are you to me? And it was frustrated for me because I had only lived in at that point, la. With a show. I was fortunate to have to move to LA with a show. I'd only lived there 18 months and done two seasons, and was just doing that constantly, but had moved from New York where it's all about this city.
[00:20:18] It's all about the hustle. If you aren't a multihyphenate in New York, people don't trust you. It's like the antithesis to la and I saw that in you, and I think that was the affinity that we identified in each other, is that we're both hustlers. We're both multiform storytellers and won't give up. So many people fall out of this industry because they are that one cog, and once that cog either falls away or they lose their adequacy to being a good cog, they're.
[00:20:47] And I don't feel that way about myself. I'm sure you don't either considering all the, the many different platforms that you're telling your stories
[00:20:54] Cris: off. Yeah, it's, I guess I just, from the very start from when I was a kid, I, I don't know if I remember telling you, but I [00:21:00] mean, I used to sneak on to movie sets when, Cuz they would come to Mexico to film.
[00:21:03] Mm-hmm. . Cause I grew up in Mexico City, like I just fell in love. With that, like mm-hmm. , I, I think I told someone the other day, I'm like, To this day, if you told me you're shooting something this weekend and I have the time and you need somebody to come and bring you your craft service. Yep. Guess who's gonna show up?
[00:21:20] 98. 98% of the time I will show up because I like being on set. Yeah. Like, I, I love the edit. Mm-hmm. , I edited my short film. I taught myself, I mean, I'd already knew Avid because that was the other brilliant thing. Coming up the side that we did is that as a story producer, you do that first string out. Yep.
[00:21:41] You work with the footage, you watch all of the interview, whether you did it or not, so, All of that gets poured into my narrative storytelling. Mm-hmm. now all of that knowledge And the edit too. Like you said, you think all showrunners should edit. Um, I think all directors should too. All [00:22:00] writers should too.
[00:22:00] Well,
[00:22:01] David: and it becomes more evident every day. You know, The further we get into this digital realm is like, 35 millimeter and sorry, cellular film was the greatest limiter to, for many reasons, but it also made people make choices and you had to be economical with your choices. And the greatest challenge in digital storytelling, digital movie making, whatever you call it, is so many people don't make choices.
[00:22:25] So many people don't know when to stop. And my greatest. Point of pride in the field is when I get to tell a crew on, you know, you're getting a crew out there and you need be shooting for 12 hour days, is to say, No guys, we got it. We got it. It's done it because crews, banking, morale with crews in the field is, is everything.
[00:22:43] And. They know no matter the fact that most, you know, field crews don't go through post on shoots, they know when they're shooting content that's not gonna make the series. Yeah. And so if you don't, if you continue to do that to them, you start to diminish your morale with them. Yeah. [00:23:00] And so, yeah, it's everything, It's flopped in regard to philosophy, but you still have to make choices and so many people
[00:23:05] Cris: don't.
[00:23:06] There's all those things. I don't know, um, all of that time that I got to do all of that stuff, what I learned a. Though was, which has helped me in my own journey right now with the film I'm trying to make, is the stories that always connected were the ones where people were vulnerable and showed themselves, and it was a very specific story that then became this global touchpoint that you could, and I'm like, Oh, well then I should explore myself and stop trying to.
[00:23:33] Write that science fiction thing that I was writing when I moved here. You know what I'm saying? Like absolutely . So that was, I was hardheaded, but No, I'm just kidding. I was just enjoying the ride and you get a little lost sometimes. And then like I had to have a conversation with myself. Okay, only take story producer or senior producer so you can do your side hustle.
[00:23:52] Because if you end up in the showrunner thing, you're never gonna do your side hustle. Yeah. Which isn't I, My side hustle is actually that. Yeah. It's [00:24:00] my side hustle. The true crime doc I'm working on Totally. My real mission is me trying to get the feature film off the ground or my podcast, which is part of the feature film, but it takes a minute to get to that.
[00:24:11] And part of the reason I wanna do this podcast is so people can hear these conversations. Yeah. As I'm trying to get my feature film off the ground. Absolutely. We're all the same, no matter what level
[00:24:20] David: you're at. It's a fact. It's just we, some have more experience than others. Some us have a
[00:24:24] Cris: little more experience and some, some,
[00:24:26] David: some give up, some don't.
[00:24:27] I mean
[00:24:28] Cris: it's, what's interesting is I, there was a story producer on this show I'm currently on in post and we were having conversations and he moved to Kansas, back to Kansas. Cuz now we can all work remotely. And he, uh, I guess you've listened to some of my podcasts and he's like, Inspired me again and he went out to try to get the rights to something that he's wanted to write a script for.
[00:24:48] And I'm like, Amazing. What's super cool , because that I'm, I want these to be little capsules like five years from now. Someone can listen to this from the beginning. Absolutely. And hopefully by then my movie will come out and [00:25:00] whatever. Yeah. And I'll still be doing this, but that's part of it is it
[00:25:03] David: is.
[00:25:04] It's beating your own drum. You know, constantly you and you being
[00:25:07] Cris: shameless about, it's that. And it's also, I find that I've listened to a lot of podcasts and a lot of, there's a lot of mystery shrouded in how a film got financed, this part of it. Mm-hmm. , which it takes three to five years to get that person who's gonna give you that money.
[00:25:23] Right. So why aren't, don't, why don't people talk about it? And I know kind of why cause. But I don't wanna talk about my film. I don't wanna, They'll let the cat outta the bag and I'm like, No, I'm gonna be completely open about this. Yeah, I have lost, I have come so close four times to development funds now.
[00:25:38] Mm-hmm. , I've got a potential meeting happening next week that's hopefully super big and it is a roller coaster. And you might look at those as failures. They're not, They're just building blocks. Mm-hmm. to my success. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I learned something from every one of those encounters. So that's the journey.
[00:25:54] And I'm gonna be so much more prepared walking on set because I've had this journey.
[00:25:59] David: That's right. [00:26:00] Right. Cause you can recall those conversations and yeah, you're going
[00:26:03] Cris: to enjoy it. Yeah. So you've worked as a director and a producer, a showroom, all of that stuff. How does narrative inform. Documentary and documentary inform narrative to you.
[00:26:15] David: It's, uh, that's tricky. I, I. They inform each other in regard to identifying a good story, and they also kind of work against each other. Whereas there's been this constant, this doubling down of true crime on every, every channel and every streamer on the nonfiction side, like this scandalous biopic vessel.
[00:26:36] For someone to pretend to be someone else, um, has hit in, in. Narrative and where they meet I think is through the audience that is attracted to them. It's, it's this, the, that, that's what they meet. I don't think that they're different methods of storytelling. I just think they're, I just think in a different fashion.
[00:26:55] For me specifically, it's about brevity. And that's what I hated [00:27:00] about narrative, and that's what I hat about fundraising frankly, too, is that I like to tell stories fast. I like to get out there and do it. And I could not stand to live with one story for three plus four, seven years because by then the story has evolved and changed as you have.
[00:27:16] And so I appreciate narrative in that way, and I'm actually very impressed when people can tell something that is on the zeitgeist after they started working on it five years later. But for me, that's why I love nonfiction, is that you can, and that's the bigger picture for me in regard to being a storyteller, is impact is.
[00:27:36] The world is changing so fast and in, you know, the types of stories that you and I are attracted to, including your short film seat, is about climate change and, and what's happening to our world. And we can't stick around for five years to wait for the right investor to come up and drop 5 million on that.
[00:27:51] No, but. You know, you ha you have to find a way to, to tell your story through, through that Trojan horse, through other, So,
[00:27:58] Cris: I mean, and I, this kind of, we, [00:28:00] there's a question I had about how important it is to find the pro for you. And I know how important it is that's, I already know this answer but I want listeners to hear this, is how important is it to find projects that align with your climate and human rights, activist heart and all the things you're interested in, in, in highlighting?
[00:28:14] Cuz I've always loved that about. Like, every time I see you post, I'm like, Oh, you found another one. You know .
[00:28:21] David: Yeah. It's everything to me and it, the older I get, the more it matters to me. And that was a big reason why we moved from San Francisco back to Michigan to Detroit and bought a site house on scene, like site on, uh, bought a house sight unseen in late 2019 and moved in early 2020 because, Financially for us, we saw the writing on the wall icontinue to be a good show runner, and was doing a lot of great work and choosing good projects.
[00:28:47] But for the same reason, I've never really picked up the mantle, start my own full production company, producing a year. I never wanted to choose a project that didn't had impact ever [00:29:00] again. I've done just regular old tv. I've been on the network side. I've tried to find a kernel of belief in every one of those shows that I had to work on.
[00:29:07] But we moved specifically to Detroit so we could lower our financial overhead so that I could pick and choose. I could chin scratch for a little bit. I could work on my own stuff and choose projects that have high impact. And so from, you know, Ocean Warriors, even I've called gold to inconvenience, Sequel to fight or flight.
[00:29:26] The show I did before Id this last spring. They all have impact. They all are, are work on numerous levels, not, And I feel like my experience in, in telling, you know, stalwart, um, non-fiction TV series style allows you to bring your audience into those social issue stories in a, in a better way. You know, I can tell, I can do, uh, law and order style show.
[00:29:49] But I'm telling the story of human trafficking and domestic violence through fight or flight. And I feel like if you, I always like to say that if you have to figure out how to play [00:30:00] their song using your instruments, and my instruments are that I have done hundreds of hours of nonfiction tv. But I'm applying them to a story about domestic violence and human trafficking.
[00:30:11] And I'm not hitting them over the head with those two messages, but it's in there for, you know, for the unengaged it looks like, you know, regular old follow doc series following, you know, amazing activist doing work every day. But truth is, it's deeper. Um, and that's, that's what motivates me is, is to take those tropes and those tricks from everything from reality TV to docu-series, um, and apply them to stories of social justice, of social issues of climate change, natural.
[00:30:35] All of that.
[00:30:36] Cris: I love that. There's, um, a friend of mine called Lee Maderas, who's from Rhode Island. She's a writer and uh mm-hmm. and stuff, but she's gotten really into the thing she's really interested right now is, is helping people see that they can become climate activists in the stories. They, even with the, from the script level.
[00:30:53] Mm-hmm. , that's narrative. So she's like, Think about this. You're writing a heist film. What if [00:31:00] the thing they're stealing. some kind of core technology for climate. Climate. Yeah. Right. And so I was just like, that was such a revelation to me. Cause I hadn't really, I don't have a heist movie in my head right now, but I was like, Yeah, wait, that's a really interesting thing.
[00:31:16] David: It, I would, I agree with that. And I, I think that that's the case for pretty much every type of storytelling these days. It does have a climate element. We've been dealing with the stories of climate refugees since, you know, Katrina. And curb your enthusiasm. You know, two people moved into, you know, his house, who had, were coming from Katrina.
[00:31:36] You know, we've, the story of catalytic converters. Like they're the most, like the, like the, the craziest story on the streets these days is cataly converted being stolen because, They're so high value. They have such rare earth in them, but they're used to, you know, protect, you know, cars from remission, emissions.
[00:31:52] There's so many crazy stories that hit everyone every day that are a part of, you know, what you can seed into your
[00:31:58] Cris: storytelling. Yeah, [00:32:00] and I just thought that was such a great conversation I had with her. And for, let's just start making sure we are conscious of those things. You know, um, well, you have to be,
[00:32:09] David: It's like, you know, I don't remember the science fiction writer that wrote this, but he said, Listen, all you're doing when you're writing science fiction is you're writing about tomorrow.
[00:32:18] And if you're writing about tomorrow, you have to predict what's gonna change. So it was Ray Bradberry who said that, Oh, I love, So he said when he wrote Fahrenheit 4 51, he had to predict that cars are gonna be big faster, so the awards have to be longer. And there's gonna be headphones, and there's like all these things that he had to predict just because he was writing about tomorrow.
[00:32:35] And if we're writing about tomorrow, or even next, you know, if we're writing about next year or we're telling stories of non-fiction storytelling, but next year we have to predict what's gonna change. And sure enough, you know, like I, I just did this series that wrapped in, you know, a month ago and we shot in, in four continents.
[00:32:52] In six, six metro cities. In every single one of those stories, half hour stories have a climate change element. [00:33:00] Whether we liked it or not. In Monterey, there's been a drought going for 10 years and you know, we had to shoot around the power outages cuz they were turning off the power and, you know, in the middle of the day, you know, and then the, you know, the reservoir broke while we're there.
[00:33:11] Wow. And destroy the power for city. And you know, it's in Japan, we were the first, we were some of the first filmmakers in because they weren't even letting tourists in at that point. Like there's, if you're writing a nonfiction, you have to be writing climate
[00:33:24] Cris: change story or poor little planet. Yeah. Do you remember telling me, I don't trust people.
[00:33:29] Who don't have three or four different things.
[00:33:32] David: I think I do. I remember where you were sitting. Yep. Yeah,
[00:33:34] Cris: it was in the hallway. I was on the phone and I. My agent at the time, which I don't have anymore, I would keep firing my agents cuz I tend to get my own jobs. And then I'm like, why am I paying you?
[00:33:45] Because I'll oftentimes, I would sign with the agency and they'd tell me they'd get me in touch with the narrative side and they never did. Cause they don't
[00:33:51] David: have access
[00:33:51] Cris: to the narrative side. Yeah. And, and I'm like, I don't need you in the ons unscripted side. Sorry. But it was a, I. [00:34:00] Gonna direct a, like a series of things for Johnson and Johnson.
[00:34:03] It was like the first that, you know, like kind of show run a mini little ad campaign thing. And I just remember, just so you know, I was so like, oh shit, he saw me because of that culture. Mm-hmm. La Fosters, which is, you have to hide your side hustle. From your showrunner and to the a certain extent, I remember coming up and being told, if you tell someone your idea, like a show idea, they own it at the company.
[00:34:30] Mm-hmm. Like whatever you sign, your non-disclosure agreements, whatever. And which was always so odd to me. Yeah. Cause I'm like, wouldn't you want somebody who's got a creative soul working for you? Yeah. And trying to strive to make themselves better and make your stuff better by virtue of that. But I remember.
[00:34:50] How struck I was cuz I, I hung up and you noticed mm-hmm. and you turned around and told me that because I think you, you noticed that I was hiding in a hallway, [00:35:00] taking a call that I didn't want everyone else to hear. So I just, I wanna honor that moment. Well, thank you you, because you, you empowered me and it turned me into someone who stopped hiding that stuff here.
[00:35:12] Thank you. If you're not gonna hire me, cuz you. That whatever else I'm doing is gonna take my attention away from the work I'm doing from you, then I'm not the right person and you're not the right person to work for. Yeah. My current bosses, all of them, um, that I've had in the last few years, they've all known.
[00:35:31] I'm very open about what I'm up to and what I'm trying to Yeah.
[00:35:34] David: Well, I think I, I'm, I'm hoping that they're, they have similar ideology to my own and yours, and that as long as you're doing great work, who cares? About all the other stuff. It's just like the work from home argument. As long as the work is getting done, who cares where it's coming from and my belief in the side house and whatever else is, you can't shut off that side of yourself.
[00:35:52] So if you hide it from the people around you, you're, you're compromising both that work and your work. And. [00:36:00] You're limiting their happiness in that moment. And we have to find joy in all the work we do. Cause you, my passion for that show is not the same as yours. Your yours might be, You love being in the environment with us and working and being in a healthy working environment, and that's why you do it.
[00:36:15] Mm. So it immediately comes toxic or unhealthy when you have to go out into a hallway to have a conversation.
[00:36:21] Cris: Yeah. And that's the reality is all of a sudden I was. . Yeah. I'm too old to not work with nice people. Yeah,
[00:36:28] David: I agree. That's, I feel the same way every day. I, I, I, the older I get, I just, I choose a very small ensemble people and work with them over find ways to work with them over and over again.
[00:36:37] Yeah. And it's important to focus on your happiness in a healthy working environment as much as it is in telling the stories
[00:36:45] Cris: you tell. Yeah. Even a few years ago, Some of these true crime things and the pandemic really help it. Even before the pandemic, I was working from home on some of them, you know, And I'm like, I don't need to be in the office.
[00:36:57] I'm having these very, like [00:37:00] the job I'm doing, I'm reaching out to families who have talking to 'em about the worst day in their life. Yeah. They've lost their son, their daughter, their brother, and you've put me in a bullpen with 50 people. Awful. How am I supposed to have the kind of conversation I need to have to get them?
[00:37:16] To convince them to sit in front of a camera for you. Right. In that kind of environment, you know? And I you, if you want me to come in for a meeting once a week, that's fine, but why do you wanna lose? Why do I wanna lose two hours of time? Cuz you're up in the valley and I'm in West LA and there's no way for me to get back and forth.
[00:37:33] And now I'm aggravated, you know, and you put me in a bullpen and I have to find someone's empty office. Yeah. You know, it's like all the stuff that when I'm home, I'm gonna do all that. And be really happy and deliver the thing to you. You know? And I get it. Some people like to be in an office. I think
[00:37:51] David: the thing that they do, and I, I agree with you, and the reason that people want people in offices in many cases is distrust [00:38:00] and.
[00:38:01] Poor communication skills from a leadership level is people not understanding how to communicate to their teams and crews. And I think the one thing that the only negative side to what's, you know, the phenomenon that's happened since the pandemic is younger generations who are still working hard and not working smart.
[00:38:21] Mm-hmm. that need to see the need to learn hard skills and be around. You know, these hyper communicators like you and I are producers. Like, you have to see that you have to be next to it and you can't do it when everyone's working from home. Yeah. Yeah. So my, my, my only fear that, my only fear that, that, that, you know, that things are gonna change is the atrophying of a new generation of talent that's coming up.
[00:38:46] That's just not being able to be around it and, and, and to do through field in the same way.
[00:38:52] Cris: Yeah. Well, so how important do you think it is for us to support each other? Or endeavors? All those
[00:38:57] David: endeavors. I think it's, it's [00:39:00] everything. I think it's why I do it, and I'm sure why you do it too. It's the greatest.
[00:39:05] Fallacy. One of the many other fallacies that I got over quickly in TV and film is en enjoyed when it, when I realized it was a fallacy, is that TV and film is about collaboration. It's my greatest joy is in collaborating and it's necessary. The seventies era concept of the fascist director of the barking orders and, and having an altruistic vision or whatever else is entirely unt.
[00:39:33] And it's created, it, it is unduly created, the toxic culture that led to people like Harvey Weinstein and, uh, you know, all these other bullies of the industry thinking that only one person can do that for you. I alone can fix it. And when I came up through film school, I remember reading a quote from genre oi, this amazing French filmmaker saying that, that each discipline has a skill and a talent, and it's about the confluence of all of them that makes a great product.[00:40:00]
[00:40:00] And so once you accept. It makes it a lot easier for you. And I would also include networking in that artistry and that, you know, you need to take as much pride in connecting to people to each other or helping out people that have a project, getting off the ground as part of your skillset. Um, because it will come back to reward you and it will help bring you into that collaboration if you really believe in that thing.
[00:40:26] So
[00:40:26] Cris: it was interesting, you, you, I think you. Posted on Facebook or something. You, you needed some help with a show you were just on mm-hmm. . And I had texted you and you're like, Oh, we need you. Yeah. And then I realized, I don't know if you knew this, but I realized once Yeah. It was with
[00:40:39] David: Diana and you Yeah.
[00:40:41] You needed we needed a Spanish speaker. Well,
[00:40:43] Cris: I, I'm a Spanish speaker, but I'm not from Columbia. Right, right. And I realized just how integral that would be. But I connected you to, to someone I knew. Who is a very good, like, she's an up and coming really good producer. Her name is Carol Escobar and she's [00:41:00] from Columbia and her family moved up here when she was 12.
[00:41:02] So she's a first generation Columbian American. And, and I was just like, Oh, I know the perfect person I think that can help you with this and connected you guys. And that's just what we're talking about is like, you were like, Oh no, we need Chris. But then I looked at it and I'm like, No, you need, you need Carol totally.
[00:41:18] And you and I, I'll help you on something else. Right. But. Elevate each other, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Because it comes back to you.
[00:41:26] David: It does. And you get just as much joy in finding out that the two people you connected have created something together than anything.
[00:41:33] Cris: Yeah. So, and know, have the wherewithal to know that if somebody wants to work with you, but you know someone else is better for what they need, you're gonna help both of those people a connect, but.
[00:41:46] Create whatever it is better. Mm-hmm. to have the wherewithal to take yourself out of that. Don't, I think we get lost in Oh no. I'll save the day for them. Totally. But it is about collaboration. It always is.
[00:41:56] David: And networking is collaboration too. Yeah.
[00:41:59] Cris: So my [00:42:00] film a Long Girl, which I don't know, we haven't talked much about it, but, uh, I wrote it in 2019.
[00:42:05] It's a coming and middle age story wrapped in an unromantic comedy. So I've taken the romcom, turned it on its head. Yeah. And it's based on me. I'm very happy single. I don't need a relationship. I don't really want one. I have my cats. I'm, and, but I think a lot of women don't get to see that in a positive light.
[00:42:22] Yeah. And it becomes a toxic thing in our society. You've actually been dealing with women in domestic abuse situations and stuff like that. Some of that I, in the true crime space I've worked in in the last few years, you know, seeing a lot of those stories. You come to learn? Not on all of 'em, but in some of them women didn't leave because they were more afraid.
[00:42:42] There was a small part of them or a bigger part of them that was afraid to be single. Yeah. More afraid to be single and seen. Single than be in a relationship that was toxic to them. And how sad is that? And how sad is that, that we're not Yeah. Giving women agency to just be who they wanna be as an happy [00:43:00] single.
[00:43:00] That's true. You know, we're seen as s so I mean, that's just to give you why I've written the script, Right. The why and why me, why now. But what advice would you give me as I'm planning to make this film? I know you've mainly done your, your docs and things you can tell immediately. And I'm on the , I'm on the trip that you don't like, which is having to figure out how to get the money.
[00:43:21] But what things should I keep in mind? I, I.
[00:43:23] David: And from my background and from my experience in all types of moving image storytelling is honesty. Don't be afraid. You've, you've done, you've working as a story producer, you've experienced this. When you gain, you work on a scene and you try to fit it into an episode, and you love the scene so much, maybe by the way it's crafted or the way that, you know, something happened, a beat or two happened within the scene that you would just really love and at some point, You take the scene out and then everything else works and you're like, Oh my God, I've been waiting.
[00:43:57] I wasting three days trying to make the scene work. When in fact, [00:44:00] no matter how much I love it, it's not, it doesn't help the bigger story. And so if I had any advice for you, it's is along the way when telling the story, just to be honest about, you know, the bigger picture that some of it's parts. Versus anything precious, and that includes your greater theme to the story about the, about this film is if you working really too hard to get some portion of it in there that's just not hitting with your audience or it's in.
[00:44:26] Take it out. Take it and see how it feels without it, like my favorite device in the whole world. And I think you've seen this in some posts that I put online and I used it as a inspiration tool for my crew in the field. On my last film is this box of cards that was created by Brian Eino and Peter Smith strategies.
[00:44:46] Yeah. And. There are many, there's kind of an undercurrent of these themes in within the cards that I feel like will really help you is to just be, and it's all about honesty. Try experimenting, move things around. Take things out. And if you [00:45:00] had, say you had a scene in the script that started everything for you, that has completely drafted.
[00:45:07] Take it out, see how the story feels about it and see if, honestly, if that that's
[00:45:11] Cris: what matters. I'll tell you cuz you'll appreciate this now giving me that advice. The scripts on its 28th draft, it's super ready to shoot. I've worked on it so fucking hard and it originally started with a sequence that I'd fallen in love with.
[00:45:25] Mm-hmm. and the character was woken up by their. Sneezing on them, which happens to me every once in a while. And I thought was funny, , um, and there was a bunch of stuff around it, but I'd fallen in love with the open mm-hmm. and many, many drafts later. And repeatedly hearing a certain note that was at its heart, the same note, but may maybe delivered a little differently from a couple different people.
[00:45:50] And you have to, you know, you have. Take notes, especially at this level from people you trust. You know, there, there was some, me giving it to certain people cuz I [00:46:00] knew who they were or what they were, you know? Um, because I wanted the script to communicate to a lot of, like across the board, not just to.
[00:46:09] Like a certain, you know, segment of women, right? I wanted men to get something from it and yeah, absolutely. People from LGBTQ community, So some of that had happened as well, like giving those notes. But from a core group of people that I really trust, I kept getting this little bit of a, a note and I realized, because at the core of this film is a woman who is happy but doesn't realize.
[00:46:33] Going on a journey to realize that she was already happy. Mm-hmm. . Okay. And I needed to show that happiness in a very quick and resonant and visual way at the start. And I realized if I cut that scene that I was in love with, um, and rejiggered some stuff, and basically start the film with an image that I was already ending it with, it ends with [00:47:00] her.
[00:47:01] Skateboarding down a street in LA with the fireworks going off on New Year's Eve, so she's skateboarding into the new year. Mm-hmm. , I love that because I do skateboard, you know, despite, I, I broke my toe skateboarding on my 40th birth like, My 40th year, just so you know, . So doctor was like, Wait a minute, , you broke it out.
[00:47:21] You're a 40 year old woman. I'm like, Yeah, I've been skateboarding since I was three. Sue me First Bone I've ever broke in skateboarding. Did did it when I'm 40. But so I realized if I started the film with the same frame, but during the morning, so she's on a morning skate and she's just smiling and happy and in her own world, I would communicate that this is a woman who.
[00:47:42] Is happy. Mm-hmm. , right? Mm-hmm. . And then you see the world and everything in society, you know, as that first group of scenes
[00:47:50] David: trying to tell her she's wrong over and over and over again. She's
[00:47:53] Cris: wrong. Mm-hmm. . But, so you and I always love the bookend when somebody can find a way to do it in a resonant way.
[00:47:59] [00:48:00] Mm-hmm. so. She's skateboarding at the beginning and she's skateboarding at the end, right? Mm-hmm. . But at the end, she's a complete, she's her complete self. I love that. Like she knows I love that she's happy, right? So yes, you have to, I had to come to terms with cutting that scene and it, I was, You had to be honest, once I.
[00:48:19] Done it. I was so much happier. Yeah.
[00:48:23] David: Yeah. Well it, it's funny how that creates relief when you do something like them. It's pretty amazing you felt that way. Yeah.
[00:48:29] Cris: What advice do you have for me as a director or leadership or anything? I mean,
[00:48:33] David: I just feel like when it comes to leadership, my favorite thing to do is to say yes.
[00:48:38] And, um, to get out of the way and to hire to my weakness. And I would say the same thing for you is, you know, once you get your funding for this, hire a great team and get out of the way. And just when they come up to you with an idea that they're very excited about, as long as it's congruous with everything else, say yes.
[00:48:53] Let's try it. Uh, you know, as a show runner, I don't view myself as a director, the producer, as an editor. I've done [00:49:00] all of those things in volume, and my goal is to show my teeth every once in a while and just gain their trust by saying, I know exactly what you're doing, and I know exactly what I'm asking for.
[00:49:10] And in that way, I'm a head coach. And I would say so if you know with you and your work, and once you get to that level that I would say the same thing. It's just you've done it all and just every once in a while show your teeth and, and speak in their language and say, I know what I'm asking for when I'm asking you to do that, because I've done it before.
[00:49:29] The worst directors. The worst producers are the ones that ask you to do something and then get impatient and they don't understand why it's taking so long. Will you just ask them to go completely reset the entire scene because you like the tree over there for them to stand behind and or stand for the, you know, the subject to stand in front of.
[00:49:46] You know how long that takes to reset. If you ask them to do that and knowing the rest of your day and how long it's gonna take, and you really want that, go get it. But don't, don't be tapping your, your watch when, you know, [00:50:00] 25 minutes later they're still not ready. Find something else to do while they're waiting.
[00:50:04] So, That's all I would say is hire your weakness and get outta the way. Do
[00:50:07] Cris: you have any advice for listeners out there? I think they've gotten a lot of nuggets from us.
[00:50:11] David: I mean, I would say the changing face of the industry right now is crazy. Couple the rise of streaming with, uh, the pandemic has created this seesaw of commissions.
[00:50:27] It. Two years ago, all the production companies were struggling because all the networks were asking for content, but we couldn't make anything because it was too unsafe to send crews out. And then they then, so the networks and the streamers were chain scratching for years and they were buying things.
[00:50:42] And so 2022 has been about, Making, just constantly making. But in that period of time, the streamers and the networks have metrics that they'd never had before, and they're, and they're not being held hostage by Nielsen's telling them what's actually working, what's [00:51:00] not. So there's been this slow down. In regard to commissions in the last six months, and all the big hitters are trying to make better content versus all of the content.
[00:51:11] So I would say what's great is in the nonfiction space, good storytelling, double down on things you believe in. Double down on that and just focus on how you tell your stories as much as what they're, And that doesn't just include the craftsmanship and know what you're doing. When I say how as much is just as valuable as what, I mean, the ethics behind what we do, the integrity behind what we do, you're hiring practices, who you're choosing to help you tell these stories and who you know, and I just feel.
[00:51:46] That's integral at this point, especially, and it needs to be cemented into our industry, is that we have to be ethical. We cannot be extracted in, in our storytelling, and that's, and we have to be good the subjects that [00:52:00] people in the field that we tell these stories with. So, That's all I would say to listeners is that it's, we're go, there's gonna be an uptick of nonfiction, but what's gonna come out of that is better storytelling.
[00:52:10] Crafted storytelling and um, less, less cheap choices. People are gonna be choosing good stories over high volume stories. , I hope so. Yeah. .
[00:52:21] Cris: But also I was also looking cuz we were talking about environmental stuff. Yes. In front of the camera. There's also, while you're planning those things, I think like I just saw a group called something plastic.
[00:52:32] It helps you make your production crew more sustainable, so. Mm-hmm. , start thinking of those aspects to your film as well, or Absolutely. Companies you can pay to offset whatever it
[00:52:45] David: is your, Yeah. Car, your carbon upsetting is necessary. Trying to your best to keep, you know, single use plastics off of your sets.
[00:52:53] There are so many. There are so many water bottle producers like now, gene style water bottle [00:53:00] producers that will give you bottle. So that your crew never, ever, ever has to use single use. I would, People need to be more mindful about
[00:53:07] Cris: that. So, uh, I always do this with my guests and you don't have to have a question, but on turning the tables.
[00:53:12] Okay. Do you have any questions
[00:53:13] David: for me? I am curious. I've always wanted to know, I mean, in this, in, in as little words as possible, What makes you tick?
[00:53:22] Cris: I don't like that you said as little words as possible. I'm just kidding. Um, , uh, curiosity. That's a good answer. I'm a very, very curious person. Curious
[00:53:31] David: In yourself and in the world around
[00:53:33] Cris: you.
[00:53:34] In the world around me. Yeah. And I think that's a product of me having been a third culture kid. Mm-hmm. . So I didn't grow up in the US so although I was born here, so I've always, it's always put me in a place of not feeling like I belong and having to. my way around and being curious of that world around me.
[00:53:56] I
[00:53:56] David: hear. I feel the same way. It's the greatest fuel [00:54:00] and it's hard to, it's hard to sustain that, especially with all that we're dealing with in this world today is, it's hard to stay curious. So I I I applaud that
[00:54:08] Cris: in you. Yeah. It's hard to stay curious. It's also hard sometimes when your curiosity leads you down roads that are super dark without meaning to, cuz you're trying to figure something out.
[00:54:19] Yes. Without hope. Yeah. And it starts eroding your hope because you're like, wait a minute, so, But you have to work at it. You, it's also, you have to work at, I think I'm a pretty optimistic person. I've been a bit accused of it by several guests. You're very my old friends because I, I think I, I had a conversation with my friend Jack Perez and we were talking about that blank page and how I often, often hear people being afraid of the blank page.
[00:54:45] And I go, I always see the blank page as an adventure. Where's it gonna lead me? And he is. He was like, Well, you always worry. Optimistic. That was his answer. . But it's the same like when I sat down at the Avid and watched the footage. When you hired me a nice cold [00:55:00] gold, I was like, You could get daunted by it and go all of this footage.
[00:55:04] How do I make something out of it? Or you could go, Oh, What adventure have you led me on? What is here to mind? Absolutely. You know, but I think you have to choose to have those viewpoints. To be honest. You have to. It's like somebody, I think somebody, I was listening to, Smartless and Sean Levy was talking to them.
[00:55:22] I don't know if you know that podcast, but it's, I think you'd really enjoy it. It's hosted by Jason Bateman, Will ett and Sean Hayes, who are really good friends in real life. And so one of them will bring a guest on and not tell the other two who it is. And then they all have a chat . That's awesome. And so they had the, Yeah, they had the director, Sean Levy on, and I didn't know this, but apparently he'd had a pretty tumultuous childhood and at some point he said, I just chose to lead a happy life.
[00:55:49] Mm-hmm. . And it sounds silly and it sounds hard, and I know it is. And there's probably therapy in there and there's probably everything else. But at the end of the day, Choose to lead an optimistic, [00:56:00] curious life. Yeah. You know, I
[00:56:01] David: love that point of view. I'm gonna take that with me
[00:56:03] Cris: if you're okay, I'm okay with that
[00:56:05] I'm okay with that. Do you have anything coming up or that you wanna talk about? And you don't have to just, I like to give that I, I have a
[00:56:12] David: couple irons in the fire. I have to admit I was not planning three weeks ago of carry Achilles and which is taking me. Field work for at least three to four months at least.
[00:56:24] It's gonna be a year before I'm fully recovered. But as we speak, some hard fought, top secret footage that I've been working with. I've been working with someone special in a very remote area of the world for over six years, and I've finally have worked with him to. Duplicate over 200 hours of photo ch shot and have.
[00:56:52] Shuttle to me through a war torn region. Um, a bus, an airplane all the way through five countries, [00:57:00] and the footage is in the air as we speak. I'm very excited about that. Um, I, I don't wanna tell you anymore, but it's been a journey to get it here. And, um, my next week I have a friend crossing a border to bring it to me here in Michigan and I will start to digitize it and put it into, Um, story, story form.
[00:57:19] Cris: That sounds super interesting. And , if at some point you need any help for me on an unrecorded line, , let me know. Those are the kinds of stories I love. This has been such an awesome conversation, David, and, um, likewise Chris. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been such a fun. Well,
[00:57:36] David: thank you for the opportunity.
[00:57:38] It's a real
[00:57:38] Cris: honor. Thank you so much for tuning into Bliss Finster. If any of these conversations are resonating with you, please subscribe on Apple Podcast. Google Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find Bliss Will Spinster on Instagram and Twitter, and through our website, bliss will spinster.com.
[00:57:53] Again, thanks so much for joining me on this journey and until next week, go find your happy, happy.[00:58:00]