Meet, David Bolen! David lives in Los Angeles and is a highly sought-after Cinematographer with numerous, narrative feature films, Television projects, and documentaries under his belt. David’s work includes 2020’s Sundance documentary darling “Some Kind of Heaven”, his feature film “Soni” which premiered at the 2018 Venice International Film Festival, and "Beast", which was in competition at the 2018 SXSW Film Festival and won the Independent Episodic Grand Jury Prize. David’s work hasn’t just made the rounds on the festival circuit, it’s also reached the Oscars, his stunning cinematography on the New York Times OP DOC “A Concerto is a Conversation" was part of the reason this fantastic short was nominated for Best Short Documentary at 92nd Academy Awards. Most recently, his feature film “Gone in the Night” (formally “The Cow”) and starring Winona Ryder, premiered at the 2022 SXSW film festival and amazingly, secured distribution with Vertical Entertainment. It can currently be streamed on Amazon. David is not just a talented Cinematographer, he’s also a wonderful friend and supportive filmmaker. He and I met a few years ago on the set of a true crime documentary series we were both working on, and we’ve been cheering each other on ever since. I’m so happy to bring you our wonderful conversation. We chat about the DP/Director relationship, how tapping into our vulnerability leads to making the best kinds of films, and the importance of making everyone from the P.A. to the Producer feel seen on a set. Find out more about David’s work on his website: https://www.davidbolen.com Connect with David on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/davidbolendp Connect with David on Twitter: https://twitter.com/davidbolen To learn more about the Blissful Spinster Podcast and Cris Graves visit the website: https://www.blissfulspinster.com To connect with the podcast on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/blissfulspinster
[00:00:00] Cris: Hi, and welcome to Blissful Spinster. This week's guest is cinematographer David Bolen. David lives in Los Angeles and is a highly sought after cinematographer with numerous narrative feature films, television projects, and documentaries under his belt. David's work includes 2020s Sundance documentary darling, Some Kind of Heaven.
[00:00:17] His feature film, Soni, which premiered at the 2018 Venice international film festival and Beast, which was in competition at the 2018 south by Southwest film festival and won the international episodic grand jury prize David's work. Hasn't just made the rounds on the festival circuit. It's also reached the academy awards.
[00:00:35] His stunning cinematography in the New York op doc, a concerto is a conversation was part of the reason this fantastic short was nominated for best short documentary at the 92nd academy awards. Most recently his feature film gone in the night, which was formally called the cow and stars went on a rider premiered at the 2022.
[00:00:53] So by Southwest film festival and amazingly secured distribution with vertical entertainment, you can currently be [00:01:00] streamed on Amazon, but David is not just a talented cinematographer. He's also a wonderful friend and supportive filmmaker. He and I met a few years ago on the set of a true crime documentary series.
[00:01:10] We were both working on and we've been cheering each other on ever. I'm so happy to bring you our wonderful conversation. We chat about the DP director relationship, how tapping into our own vulnerabilities leads to making the best kinds of films and the importance of making everyone from the PA to the producer feel seen on set.
[00:01:28] So, however you found this podcast. Thank you for tuning in and please enjoy this week's episode. Hey David, how are you?
[00:01:35] David: Hello. I'm doing well. How are you?
[00:01:38] Cris: I'm pretty good. It's been a
[00:01:39] David: while. It's been a couple years. Yeah, it's been a couple years. It's crazy. You've exploded. exploded with
[00:01:45] Cris: anxiety. Well, thank you for agreeing to do my podcast.
[00:01:48] David: Yeah, no, I always love, I think it's really fun to talk. Just talk about the industry and what, what we're up to and. It's cool to connect again. Can
[00:01:54] Cris: we start at the beginning and just find out what your journey was like first?
[00:01:58] David: Yeah. Yeah. [00:02:00] So I'm a Canadian, which is always, people are intrigued. They're like, oh, like people from Canada exist and do things.
[00:02:08] So I grew up in, in Toronto, Canada, and which was a really beautiful and wonderful and diverse place to grow up. And I was really, really lucky to have really nurturing parents who loved film. And I always remember, my dad used to every Tuesday, there's like a cheap deal at Kentucky fried chicken called Toni Tuesday.
[00:02:28] And you could get a meal for Atuie, which is $2 in Canada. It's like a little coin. We go get like a two E Tuesday and then we'd go to, to a movie theater and, and he'd, um, he'd take me to films that probably had no right scene as like a 10 year old. He'd take me to these really art films and adult just not adult films, but pre rated movies where I was just like, what?
[00:02:48] This is crazy. Remember seeing like babble at really young and being like, wow, this is an incredible. Pizza filmmaking. I remember seeing in the theater and just being like blown away. Oh my God. I can't believe someone made this. So I was really [00:03:00] fortunate in that sense. And, and my mom on my mom's side, she, she was more of the kinda hands on person.
[00:03:05] Like she was the one she gave me my first camera and, you know, always encouraged me to make things and spend my summers, like making little movies with my friends. I remember, we tried to like recreate Lord of the rings with our little like DV cameras and all of us dressing up as different characters and going around in the woods and making it.
[00:03:23] So I definitely had like a childhood just filmed with full, full with movie memories and, yeah, so it was wonderful. And then I think as I got a bit older, my dad, he served as a, like a member of the board on this documentary film festival called hot docs, which I is a wonderful film festival in, in Toronto.
[00:03:42] That really is like this amazing thing where people in downtown Toronto are like lining up to see documentaries. So I'd get this pass. And I would just bop around on my own and just watch documentaries all day and see the most obscure things. And I just loved it. I just, that's where I was like, wow, like documentary, like [00:04:00] that's, this is also pretty interesting, like, and it's interesting that these films can actually have like a message behind them in a purpose.
[00:04:06] And. So that was fascinating to me as well. And so all these things I think have played a role in my adult career, but, but yeah, that's how I started my, my interest.
[00:04:15] Cris: Yeah. That's super interesting because what I've found is, cause I listen to a lot of podcasts, like I think you do too with different filmmakers and stuff.
[00:04:23] Yeah. And it's interesting to me that when I listen to a lot of the older cinematographers, like we were just yeah. Earlier talking about deacons, but some of the other ones. Yeah, yeah. They had this start with documentary as well as, as scripted or, or narrative. Yeah. And I do wonder cuz there always seem to be this separation between the narrative and the doc yeah.
[00:04:42] In, in your generation or mine, you know, and it's interesting that you have this background that sounds closer to the old school, you know?
[00:04:49] David: Yeah, yeah. No, it's interesting. And I think for me, like documentaries gives you such an amazing training in, in trusting your instincts and, and shooting from the heart.
[00:04:59] It's really [00:05:00] easy on narrative and commercial sets to, um, for your mind to go purely technical. And be like, okay, well I need this lighting ratio and we've got three cameras going and you've gotta, you, you do have to be very technical, but I think doc is such a, a way of shooting where you're shooting from the heart and you're feeling things, and you're seeing what the characters are doing.
[00:05:18] And you're making very instinctual movements with the camera based on those feelings that you're, that are within yourself as you're watching. So whenever I get into this like overly technical mode on set, I have to mind myself like, OK, it's time to feel a little bit. It's time to like, think about what's this character going through and, and try and bring that back in, in, into me because that's really, I think what makes special cinematography is when you can feel that in the movement, in the lighting, all those things.
[00:05:43] So doc really, I think, is important for that.
[00:05:45] Cris: That's so. I love that. I, I, yeah, I truly
[00:05:48] David: believe it. , it's, it's cheesy,
[00:05:50] Cris: but I believe it. Well, no, it's it's. Yeah, but you can tell it in your work, you and I met on a tiny little true crime documentary series, but every [00:06:00] time I looked at what you were shooting it, you could tell, you were trying to, it was evocative of whatever was going on.
[00:06:05] I also, I was in posting that show and it was every one of those interviews. You could feel a little bit of the personality of whoever we were interviewing. And I know that was you working with Matt? Yeah, Zao the director. You're the one looking through the lens. That's good. And I, it was just really cool to see that and to know that's what elevates, I think anything you work on yeah.
[00:06:30] Is that everyone is going towards that truth of totally the character or the scene or the, whether it's narrative
[00:06:36] David: or documentary. Totally. And I think also just with interviews, it's people are always, I think a lot of cinematographer struggle and okay. You're doing a doc series with interviews. For me, interviews have always been like this opportunity of, okay, what, what can we actually say about someone with this frame?
[00:06:51] Yeah. And how can we make this as dynamic and interesting and quirky as possible? I just did a, a project with the way brothers who they did this great documentary [00:07:00] series called wa wild country. Oh, okay. And from them, I was just blown away because you can go into a space and you can immediately say, this is the most beautiful frame in the space, but for them it was about, well, what's the most meaningful frame in the space.
[00:07:13] You know, if we have to sacrifice 10% of beauty, but this frame now really speaks about the person and their quirkiness or their strangeness or their loneliness, then that's the frame we should go with. And, and I think that was really cool to see, because you can get caught up as a DP, just make a beautiful image, but it's, it's really what we should be doing is make a meaningful image, you know?
[00:07:32] Cris: Yeah. I think that's, it's, it's interesting cuz I work in television mainly for my day job as, as you know, I'm gonna get my feature made, but yeah, I have to pay my rent and yeah, but like I'm working on a show right now. That they've got a black background that travels with us and it's just this gray space behind, you know, now do I like it for my own comfort of schedule?
[00:07:54] Sure. We pop it up in a conference room and everyone comes to us. Yeah. Do [00:08:00] I care for it artistically? Not really. There's like some of the characters I've met, meaning like the people we're interviewing, I could just in my head see some of the things we could have done with them. Yeah. To really also augment the story being told.
[00:08:16] Yeah.
[00:08:17] David: No, totally. Just in that frame. No, I think I's a constant struggle. Right? Cause it's it, that speaks to me to this like constant balance. We're all in as greaters where there's this push pull. A lot of why you get hired as a DP is, is, is this person easy to work with? Which I think is important. Mm-hmm but you also need to look inside yourself sometimes and be like, okay, I know production is gonna hate this, but I, I need to push a little bit and I need to fight for.
[00:08:43] Fight for it, even though it's gonna be a big pain in the butt. So that's like a constant struggle, which I it's always difficult to get. It's a challenging
[00:08:49] Cris: thing. Yeah. I mean, you, you've got, I remember it's your name on it too. Yeah. So I would assume some of that constant struggle has to do with that.
[00:08:58] yeah, it's challenging, but [00:09:00] kind of dial it back a little. Why, why cinematography are you or is this just a stepping stone or is this what you
[00:09:05] David: wanna do? Yeah, I mean, I think we all started off being like, oh, I'm a director. That's how everyone starts. And, and growing up, I was always in my, you know, group of friends, we were all making movies and I was always okay, I'm the director and you guys all listened to me.
[00:09:18] And I was very authoritative and crazy and, you know, I was like, okay, I'm the director. And I think as I, I, I went to film school at USC, which was, you know, really a crazy experience cuz it was my first time going to Los Angeles and I had no idea I was. I didn't even really know what LA was. I just was like, okay.
[00:09:38] Uh, it seems like a good film school I should go. And I think as I, as I did direct more and more films, I really found that what spoke to me was crafting that visual language, right? Like editing to me is something I deeply respect, but have always found to be a very painful process. And I think one thing that I thrive on is pressure.
[00:09:57] And when you're on set you [00:10:00] as a DP, you have pressure really forces you trust your instinct and just room
[00:10:09] focused. When you have a bit more time, it's you have more decisions to think through, but on set you're like, I just need to make a decision now, or this shot's not gonna happen. So you just need to decide. And, and I found, I thrived in that, but on more emotional sense, I just, I fell in love with capturing images.
[00:10:26] And I think when I did direct my films were, they were fine. They were, you know, good. But I think visually they. Did something different. And, and so I think, you know, through reflection, I, I think visuals is what I'm really attracted to. And I've always loved about cinematography that like, you know, you're going through it with your own film.
[00:10:42] It it's so challenging to make a movie and, and to get people excited about it and to raise the money and to get people involved. And like, all of that is such an amazing thing that I'm just blown away by my director, friends, but. I, I just, I don't think I could do it. I love that as a DP, pretty much you get the call [00:11:00] when the film is really happy.
[00:11:01] You got the money, come on. Yeah. It's like, we got the money now let's do the fun part. And so I get to join when the film is really fun and I get to leave when it gets a bit less fun and, and then I get to see a finished product and it's amazing. Right. So I've love that element of it that, you know, I kind of get to go in right as the war is starting rather than the lead up to it or, or the, the stuff after I, I, I jump into the battle and that's always been really fun for me.
[00:11:25] And that's quite the adventure.
[00:11:26] Cris: Yeah. Yeah. I, it's fine. Cuz I, I think you listen to that episode. Cause I think that's the one I sent my friend Jack, who's a director. He's yeah. We were talking about how you spend years trying to get to that fun part. Yeah. And then that fun part's 20 days. Yeah. and it's just so, and then right after that, it's it's years after that, you know?
[00:11:44] David: Um, yeah. And it's so fragile. I just have so many films that it's like, oh, green light, red light. Like we got an actor. Oh the actor dropped out. We lost. 25% of our financing. So it's, I think every film is a miracle and, and I'm always just like holding my breath. If you can just get to [00:12:00] day one, usually it'll happen.
[00:12:01] But so often it's this very fragile kind of living
[00:12:04] Cris: entity. Yeah. It's a rollercoaster. I've come close to getting development funds four times now for yeah,
[00:12:11] David: no, it's that? I don't know how you deal with like, I would, yeah. Mentally must be challenging.
[00:12:16] Cris: It's very, it's mentally and heart challenge and, you know yeah.
[00:12:20] And you just have to learn how to like, okay, you gotta sit in it second. You gotta breathe through it. You gotta go. By yourself, some ice cream yeah, totally go to bed and then wake up the next day and go, how do I, yeah. Okay. Now I got a Zig cuz the zag didn't work. Yeah, totally. But I'm gonna get it done.
[00:12:37] You will, I believe. Um, so how, speaking of all your director, friends, which I hope, uh, I'm one of them, even though I don't have a feature. Yeah, no
[00:12:46] David: you are.
[00:12:47] Cris: um, um, what do you see as the importance of the DP director relationship? Cause yeah, I know there's a couple of directors that I know that you work with quite often.
[00:12:56] Yeah.
[00:12:56] David: At least in the doc world. Yeah. No, I, I, I think. [00:13:00] So much of DP director relationship is this creating this really trusting relationship. Right? When I, when I jump into pre-production on a new film with a director I've never worked with, you can get into shot listing and you can get into references and you can get into all the prep.
[00:13:13] But for me, prep is honestly, it's so much of it. 90% of it is building a relationship and getting to know each other and becoming like safe with each other. And I think a word I always come back to with this relationship is the vulnerability. It's, you both need to feel safe to try things and to fail and to be bold and to not worry that the other one is gonna judge you for an idea or something that doesn't work because.
[00:13:36] If you can have that, then you guys push yourself to do something different and great and unique. It's very easy to fall into the trend of, I can make it, uh, look interesting and beautiful. But for me, it's, I think now that I've shot for 10 years or so, it's, it's more about making an interest, an, an image that feels different and that feels unique.
[00:13:55] And that feels like something that only I could have created. And you need a director who's [00:14:00] willing to say, fly with that, David, like, whatever crazy ideas you have, I'm not gonna shut them down. Let's try it. And if I can speak to like, probably my closest collaborator, like Lance Oppenheim, he's a director I've been working with since he was 15.
[00:14:12] So we've developed that over almost 12 years now. And I think it's such an amazing quality about him is that he never shuts down an idea. He's always saying, let's try something crazy here. Let's make it different. And that's just so amazing and a cinema, right? There's nothing worse than when you feel like when you're set and feel like your ideas are secondary.
[00:14:32] You kind of go into this zone of just being a technician. And I think the really amazing directors are the ones who not only with their DPSS, but with all people on the crew, they lift them up and they empower their ideas and that creates something really special. So yeah. If you look at the great all time directors, I think a lot of them kind of embrace that.
[00:14:49] Cris: Well, I think a, I hope I strive to B that kind of a person, but I also, when I look at them just like you it's, it's almost like watching a conductor. Yeah. They're allowing your [00:15:00]instruments, the camera. Yeah. And by allowing that collaboration, you're elevating my vision. Cause my script is yeah, totally.
[00:15:09] Literally a conversation I'm having with. Or with a production designer when you're reading it. Totally. I'm hoping you're seeing my vision. And then once I'm totally the director and we're getting to the visuals, I hope that conversation continues, you know? Yeah,
[00:15:24] David: no, absolutely. And I think it's about not being, I think directors can get into a habit sometimes of acting like they need to know everything.
[00:15:32] And I think the best directors are the ones who say, I actually don't know everything and, and let's talk about it and let's see what works, you know, because if it's just your ideas, that's it. But, but if you bring in everyone, yeah. Then you have this kind of cacophony of creativity.
[00:15:49] Yeah. Yeah. You
[00:15:50] Cris: have de peed for, for, I mean, from what I've watched you , you're, you've kind of, yeah, you've got like an Oscar nominated short that you DPD, [00:16:00] um, which is concert a concerto as a conversation, um, D peed some kind of heaven that got a lot of, yeah. You were CLO. That was Sundance, right?
[00:16:07] David: Yeah. That, yeah, that was a Sundance premier.
[00:16:10] Cris: Yeah. And then you recently just did the south by Southwest film, the cow that's now gone in the
[00:16:16] David: night, gone in the night. Yeah. Weird.
[00:16:18] Cris: The title changed. It was funny cuz you, you, it I'm like, is that the, and I had to look it up. It was very funny. Yeah. But is there like a connective thread? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:27] You can see to that or how your journey's.
[00:16:29] David: Yeah, I think certainly I'm strange in the sense that I've really worked on a lot of different things. Like I think a lot of DP end up being like just documentary or just narrative or just commercial. But I really kind of like my first five years of my career was such a weird Hodd hodgepodge, like.
[00:16:45] Go from a doc to a narrative, to a short to music, video, to a commercial. And it was like really all over the place. And I think probably to a fault at times, people were like, you need to like focus in a little, but I just, I was, I'm a very excitable person and, and kind of get excited by all forms of [00:17:00] filmmaking.
[00:17:00] But I think certainly documentaries have been like a very important part of my career and something that like deeply informs the way I shoot. So as I'm moving into more and more narrative work, I think a lot of the directors who are moved by my work are, are ones who want it to have a little bit of that.
[00:17:17] Like ruggedness of documentary. I, when I do narrative shoots, Like the cow or gone the night is, and I just did a series called deli crime for Netflix. There's a pressure to shoot with multiple cameras. And just because you move faster and I, I, as a DP, I really try to focus on shooting with a single camera, like I would in a, in, in most documentary situations.
[00:17:37] And there's many reasons for that. But for me come it's really about proximity to camera and what that does to an image. So when you're shooting with three cameras, you have to shoot with longer lenses and shoot from afar and. If you have three cameras and you're shooting really close to someone's face, then that camera's gonna beat in the image of the other two cameras.
[00:17:57] So you can't really do it, but with documentary it's, [00:18:00] I've always loved that. If I have a single camera, I can get right up to a person and I can film their close up on a wide lens. And there's something about that has always appealed to me. There's like an intimacy that you can get with the 20 millimeter lens that you can't get with a hundred millimeter lens from across the room.
[00:18:15] It just feels different. There's a different compression to it. And as an audience, I think you could realize, oh, there's a closeness to the camera when you're on a wider lens. It's why I think people love like's work so much is that he's right there with the characters and the actors. And you can feel this immense kind of intimacy with it.
[00:18:32] So that's been a very crucial part of my work as I've moved more into narrative is like that fight of being like from the very beginning. Listen, I know you wanna shoot with three cameras and I know that'll cut down on our shooting days, but if we wanna create something that's really. Beautiful and special why you're hiring me is we, we try and do it with a single camera.
[00:18:50] So that's like on a very technical level on a, on an emotional level. It's I, I, I, I found that I love character stories about. People struggling and people going through [00:19:00] things and, you know, plot heavy stories have never necessarily appealed to me. I've always been more interested in characters and subtle emotions and things like that.
[00:19:08] So when I read a script, if it's too much, like this happens and this happens, my brain kind of checks out a little bit. I've always been drawn to these films that have these kind of subtle layers to a character that kinda unravel slowly. And I think that hopefully that's prominent in my work, but yeah, it's always a learning that's cool experience.
[00:19:26] And,
[00:19:27] Cris: um, so here's the fan question? Yeah. I don't know if we will like that. I called him a fan, but okay. From a friend of mine, his name will Pruitt. He's the son of someone you've worked with bill. Um, and Will's, um, Will's growing up, been becoming a filmmaker in his own. Right. He's been writing scripts and he worked for Robert Downey Jr's company.
[00:19:47] Just recently. Cool. Some kind of heaven. Cool. Is one of his favorite films and he discovered it on his own, I believe. Cool. And then I, when he said something about it, I go, oh, I know the DP for that. that's awesome. Um, and, [00:20:00] and he is really talented, a really nice guy, but, um, so last night I, I texted him and said, do you have a question for David?
[00:20:05] Just cuz I wanted to see if he had one. And so this was his question. And he said, um, yeah, in some kind of heaven. Yeah. What stands out the most to me is that every single shot almost has a look and feel of a scripted movie as though the characters were able to entirely forget they had a camera in front of them.
[00:20:22] Interesting. Yeah. What did it take to achieve this? How did you and Lance go about capturing such raw, subtle expression? Yeah. From the subjects you followed.
[00:20:31] David: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a, it's a really interesting question. And I think it's definitely speaks to kind of how I've always tried to approach documentaries is and similar kinds to what I was talking about.
[00:20:42] Proximity to camera. There's been like, I think, I think it's, it's less relevant now, but five years ago, I feel like a lot of the time documentaries were expected to be shot on like a zoom lens. And there was a bit of a sloppiness to documentary that I was always like, why do documentaries feel like [00:21:00] this?
[00:21:00] There's gotta be a better way. Like people shot on NG style cameras with the zoom lens and you be in a corner shooting from far away. There's gotta be a way to make documentaries feel more cinematic. Like you're watching a movie. And, and so a lot of it was like, I, I started shooting documentaries on primes and, and started trying to get close to the characters.
[00:21:18] And I think there's this belief sometimes. Like sometimes when I bring this up with new directors, they'll be like, well, isn't that. Scare them or freak them out or like change them. And, and what I've really found is that if you do it for a while, you do it for a couple hours with that person, that person feels comfortable with you.
[00:21:33] They forget about the camera, even though it's right up in their face. It's remarkable to me how that happens. And. Especially when I do verite documentaries, you where I'm shooting with someone for month, they completely forget about you, even if you're right there. So that's always been interesting to me and, and with some kind of heaven, me and Lance just looked at photo books.
[00:21:53] We, Lance always brings an amazing amount of references to things and it totally shapes it. And he brings music and he brings [00:22:00] artwork and all sorts of things. And he just creates in your head before you've even shot. This is the feeling he doesn't necessarily know what he wants it to look like, but he knows how he wants it to feel emotionally.
[00:22:09] So we specifically looked at this amazing photo book. That's just had such a profound impact on me called pictures by pictures, from home, by Larry Salton. And it's this incredible series of this photographer did about his parents. I think living in Palm Springs, his aging parents, and, and it's this raw, sad lone book about them in their last years.
[00:22:29] And I was like, okay, well, you know, what, if we really tried to push to make this film feel like a photograph, like every image. Feel like a photograph. That was how we approached it. So there's a few things that went in. There's a stillness to photography, right. Obviously it's one image, so it's still, so I was like, like, well, let's, maybe we'll try tripod and see if this is possible.
[00:22:47] And it's really hard to shoot documentary on tripod. But luckily with old people, they don't move around all that much. So that's like an advantage, right? Like you can't really do tripod when you're with like 10 year olds, it's a bit more challenging with old [00:23:00] people. You can actually just set a frame and they'll just sit there and you're like, OK, great.
[00:23:03] So that's really helpful. But we really just tried to sculpt frames and Lance has always been an advocate of saying, okay, I know true documentary, you just film wherever they are or whatever they're doing at whatever time. And for us, it was much more about, we know this person is gonna do this at some point situation.
[00:23:20] Let's put them in a place. Let's put them at a time of day that really makes this feel special. And. More interesting. And we'll shoot it that way. So we, we definitely controlled a lot of the situations, which people are like, that's not true documentary and maybe it's not, and maybe we're not interested in that.
[00:23:36] Um, but we would kind of really try and control our end and then once scene is happening, we let it, we don't, we don't interrupt in that sense, but we do put ourselves in situations where we can kind of succeed visually. That's
[00:23:48] Cris: cool. I mean, there's also, there was also a sense from what I remember, like you would sit on something before the action happened, like the pool, which now hearing you talk about it is EVOC a photograph.
[00:23:59] It's [00:24:00] like a photograph is just sitting there still, and then it becomes. It, it comes to life with the humans that dive in or the, you know, so congratulations. You achieved that. Yeah. Super cool. To hear that I've chatted with Lance a little bit on Instagram, but he seems very busy yeah,
[00:24:17] David: but I he's, he's a lunatic.
[00:24:20] Cris: Can't wait to see where his career takes him. So
[00:24:23] David: well, we're shooting we're shooting next week. So we'll, we'll hopefully got new stuff
[00:24:27] Cris: coming soon. Oh, cool. Is that what you're doing here?
[00:24:30] David: Cause you were no, I've been, I've just been back for a bit, but we're, uh, we've been bopping around all of Arizona and New York.
[00:24:35] We're shooting this, this new feature doc, so. Oh, cool. It's a weird one. I wish I could. No, don't worry about it. Tell everyone about it already, but yeah, it's a strange one. I
[00:24:43] Cris: expect nothing less out of Lance. Um, so
[00:24:47] David: he's a, he's a very excitable young man, but he's uh,
[00:24:50] Cris: so he's got a, a follower from the beginning.
[00:24:52] Yeah. Will do. So how does, how does working you and I met on a true crime series, which is probably [00:25:00] like, how does all of that differ to you? Like working TV? Cause I know you just did deep water, which yeah. I know is a series for Netflix, but it's still part of that true crime, I think. Yeah.
[00:25:09] David: Yeah. It felt a little, yeah, totally.
[00:25:11] No.
[00:25:12] Cris: I mean like deadly cults to me,
[00:25:13] David: it's it's, I think there's so many similarities in a way. And so many differences. I think it's interesting with documentaries, there's kinda like really two types that have emerged. And I think with Netflix and Hulu and all these things. There is a bit more of a formula now of, okay.
[00:25:29] People, pretty much you do a bunch of interviews and, um, you get the story and then you kind of have them edit it. And then a couple weeks or months later you go and you do the kind of like stylized B roll that kind of fills in all the gaps that the archival doesn't have. And that's interesting to me.
[00:25:45] And on, on deadly calls, we did so many kind of like these kind of, we tried not to even call them recreations, cuz that word is so cringy to me. But we did a lot of this very stylized moody B-roll and, and, and I think with docs, it's like, I'm always just [00:26:00] trying not to be on the nose about recreations, right?
[00:26:03] It's about creating an image that represents something rather than shooting something that directly happened. So I think if we're talking about someone feeling lonely, rather than filming a person alone in a room, looking sad, maybe you're shooting a, a piece of. Carpet, and there's a little sunlight on it and it's fading away.
[00:26:23] How can you be more metaphorical with the images? But I think right, as of late the documentary projects that have really excited me, um, are ver projects where you really are start, you know, following a present day story. I think something in the soul just sparks in me when I'm, when I'm with real people in re in real moments that just does something to me where I, I have this natural inclination of, okay, the camera belongs right here and it all hits.
[00:26:51] So yeah, there's kind of those two types and ver taste is such a hard thing to do nowadays, because I think with Netflix and, and, and Hulu and HBO, that they [00:27:00] really. An assure storyline that can be done in whatever 30 amount of shooting days. And, and with verte, it's so much more of like, we don't know, like maybe we'll need a hundred days, maybe we'll need 200 days.
[00:27:11] So that's, it's harder to make and, and harder to get kinda networks involved. But I think when you can do it, it's really special. And the deep end was like that. For me, it was a, a true gravitate doc that we could really sink our teeth into. How long did you guys shoot? Uh, I mean, you know, the director, who's an amazing John CASBY.
[00:27:29] Who's an amazing cinematographer as well. We, we shoot together, probably worked on it for over three years, but on and off I was on it for maybe two years. And then, um, I imagine he maybe did over 150 shooting days, so amazing. I mean, yeah, maybe more, I don't know, but pretty crazy and pretty amazing that he was able to convince Hulu to do it
[00:27:48] Cris: well.
[00:27:48] Yeah, cuz that's a, that goes back to an old school way of doing documentary. Whereas what you're talking about is like I came up in that world if. And unscripted. We've [00:28:00] got, you're casting it. You're putting them in the situation. You have totally 30 days to shoot this thing. That's supposed to look like that.
[00:28:08] And it just becomes formulaic. Yeah. To a certain extent. And I love when something feels and you can tell that they took the time to just be there and let things
[00:28:18] David: go. Yeah. No, I, I think it's special. It's it's rare though. It's so hard to get ADE docs made
[00:28:24] Cris: nowadays. It, it, yeah. It's, it's I think the networks and everyone see it as an enemy to the budget.
[00:28:29] Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah. So you you've touched on this a little bit, but what kind of projects really attract you and why? And do you need to be attracted to something? Yeah. When something, yeah.
[00:28:39] David: I, someone said something to me, uh, a couple years ago that was really interesting. And they said, every feature film you do is like a tattoo.
[00:28:47] Like it's gonna be there on you forever. And people are always gonna think of you for that. And. That like really struck out to me because there was a time in my career where I was, so I just love shooting. I really love shooting. [00:29:00] So I was so just like gung-ho to just do anything, I didn't really care if it was not necessarily something I wasn't super interested in.
[00:29:07] I just love being on set and learning. And I think slowly I've now transitioned a little bit where I'm trying to be much more thoughtful and mindful about the, the films I take on. And, and what do I bring to this film and how does this film actually reflect who I am as a person? And I don't think you can do a super good job on, on a film.
[00:29:26] If, if you don't feel something emotionally that really touches you. I've definitely done films in the past that I did because they had a good budget or they had a good director attached and I didn't necessarily feel things on set and, and you can see it in the work. It's not as dynamic, but when I really, you know, a film, like some kind of heaven where I feel so deeply for the characters and, and have so many things.
[00:29:47] Inside myself while I'm filming, then, then that's when that inspiration really comes out. So yeah, I've really been trying to be more considerate about, about the films I do and yeah. At the heart of it. I [00:30:00] do think a director is really the first thing that I look at is this director, someone that is gonna be kind and easy to work with and, and, and good to my crew, but on a deeper level, is this director vulnerable and willing to listen to ideas.
[00:30:16] And then ultimately does this director actually have the persistence to, to make this really good. There's always times in posts where certain directors get to a place where the film's almost done, but there's a few little mistakes and it's well, are we gonna push to fix those little mistakes? Or are we just gonna let it be?
[00:30:33] And I always respect the directors who said, no, there's a little tiny boom shadow in the top right. Side of frame for half a second. And it's like, no, we're not gonna let that be. We're gonna fix that. You know, Lance for instance, is just an obsessive in terms of making sure that every frame is perfect and that quality control ultimately is like, honestly super important to me because I think film is such an imperfect medium.
[00:30:58] And I think as much as [00:31:00] we can, as great as we need to wish to make it as precise and pristine as, as possible, this is our artwork and why just let it be a sloppy thing. So directors really important and, and the story, you know, I just need a story and characters that really speak to me. And, and I found, I I'm much more interested.
[00:31:18] Sadder stories. Honestly, I don't know what it is in me, but I like the poetic. Yeah. So
[00:31:23] Cris: it's interesting. I've known you since kind of the beginning of your career a little bit, right? You weren't out of school very long before we, we brought you on a deadly deadliest cult. If I remember
[00:31:34] David: correctly. Yeah. I think I've maybe three or four years.
[00:31:36] Yeah, I can't. Yeah, it wasn't long. I think it just speaks to, I think documentary as well. It's like you create these like beautiful little families when you're making them and it's such a weird fleeting experience. You get so close with people for the month or two at a time, and you just, you're all creating this thing together.
[00:31:54] And it's this beautiful community, right? I think as humans, we're all searching for that, but it's so fleeting and [00:32:00] documentary, like, yeah, you get so close with these people and then you all go off and these people always remain important figments in your imagination, in your mind. But ultimately it's this freezing experience.
[00:32:10] And, but I just love the documentary world and how we connect like that. I
[00:32:14] Cris: like, um, being able to remain connected. That's one thing that social media's done fairly well. I think for me is I do I'll connect with the people I really wanna stay connected with. And then yeah, you can support totally. You know, even just a little heart tells you that I'm seeing you.
[00:32:30] Totally. No, I love it. And I'm seeing that trip, but um, you read a very early. Version of a lone girl. And thank you for taking the time. No, of course.
[00:32:40] David: um, which of course I like wanted to get made so badly.
[00:32:43] Cris: Yeah. So, you know, it's a, it's, it's that coming a middle-aged story wrapped in an unromantic comedy.
[00:32:48] Maybe not as sad as, um, you you've been working on. So I've, you know, and I've taken that romcom and turned out and said, and I remember you commenting on that when we, we met for coffee that day, you liked that it wasn't normal. Yeah. [00:33:00] Yeah. But what advice, because you've now been able to work on several features possibly with first time directors, I'm not sure for features and stuff.
[00:33:07] Yeah. A couple of 'em. Yeah. Yeah. What advice as you know, cuz I'm gonna be working with DPS and stuff. Yeah. But what advice would you give me as I plan? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I do plan to make storyboards and short shot listing obviously. But what advice
[00:33:20] David: do you have? Yeah. Prep is like so important and valuable.
[00:33:23] And I think getting a DP involves super early is, is really important. There's nothing worse than, you know, I think directors have great taste, but it's, it's always interesting a location that might look good. To your eye. Initially you do need to assess from a visual language and say, okay, it looks cool.
[00:33:39] Where are the light sources? What are the windows? How does the light move around the house? How can we use that to our advantage? What's the floor. Like, can we move a Dolly on it? All those things are really important. And I think if you get a DP involved, super early and talk with the director early, they, they can inform on those things and make the film look so much [00:34:00] better.
[00:34:00] But I, it goes back to my earlier point. The number one thing beyond anything technical is. Being vulnerable with your creators. It's so important. Like I always emphasize it. Like my first meetings with directors are really about scoping out. Like, is this a vulnerable person? Is this someone who I can really push with?
[00:34:19] Is this someone I can be open with? It's it's a romantic relationship in a sense, like it's, you have to be vulnerable. Like it, it just won't work. If you aren't. I think creators who are purely technical with each other, you're gonna make, you're gonna make a, a film void of emotion. A film can look great, but if it doesn't mean anything, then who cares.
[00:34:38] So I think a director just needs to open up and say, I don't know, I don't know what the answer is to this. What do you think? And that just saying that is so valuable, it opens up your creator's hearts, right? It's all of a sudden now, now I'm excited. Oh, well we could try this or this or this or this. And obviously a director.
[00:34:54] You have to have some level of decision making. You have, you have to be able to say, no, I want it this [00:35:00] way. And, and that's fine. And I'll always respect that if a director. You know, so David, I love that idea, but I just think for this it's it's too much or it's too little, then I'm gonna respect that. If I signed on, then it means I, I respect this director and I believe in this directors and I'm gonna listen to it.
[00:35:14] But I think opening up that world to your creators is just the number one thing a director can do. And, and just don't act like you have all the answers, cause that's no fun for anyone. You gotta be open. So I know you are gonna, you're gonna make something amazing. And you've always been such a wonderful person in terms of just like opening people's hearts up, you know, like it's first thing I, when I met you, just like, oh, this is a very easy person to talk to.
[00:35:39] So that's
[00:35:39] Cris: that's oh, thank you. Yeah. I thought that about you too. Good parking lot. You were offloading gear and I, I was refusing to help. No, um, dictator, I think at that point I was still in my late forties, but I, I got to a point in my life where I'm like, yeah, don't hurt your back for them. you know?
[00:35:57] Well,
[00:35:57] David: and I will say, obviously don't hurt your back, [00:36:00] but. I also do really respect directors. This is a smaller thing, but, and it's something you're amazing at, but directors like directors, I work with on commercials and stuff who they're good people, but they they'll come on set. And they don't really know anyone.
[00:36:13] They don't talk to anyone. They, I talk to them and they sit in their village and, and they direct, and they're talented people. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think directors like Lance, for instance, when he's on set, we've done commercials together. He's introducing himself to every single person and he's valuing every single person he's making.
[00:36:31] Every single person feel seen, whether it's the PA or the key grip or the gaffer or the steady cam op he, he has a genuine interest in everyone. And that empowers everyone, like when they know a director cares about them, they're willing to work so much harder. They're willing, they don't care about the meal penalty.
[00:36:55] Better lunch than them in drinking Starbucks that was ordered for just them. [00:37:00]There's something that, that does to the crew where they're not gonna push quite as hard. You want them to treat it in something that's part of their soul as well. It's not just a day job for them, you know?
[00:37:09] Cris: Yeah. I'm a big believer in, because I came up from the very, like I was a runner, then I was a set PA.
[00:37:17] Then I was, and I understand the value of a producer or a direct. Coming up and shaking your hand and yeah. Introducing yourself and then every day saying hi to you by using your name. Yeah. And it's not a super important to me. It's not a, it's not a thing I'm putting on. I am interested in everyone and I am, I want everyone to feel seen.
[00:37:41] Yeah. And that comes down to vulnerability too. A hundred percent, you know, that's what you're describing as a director. Who's not vulnerable enough to let the crew see them. Yeah.
[00:37:49] David: It's a lesson I learned. Yeah, no, I learned this from my mom, like early on. She does some, a very different thing. So she's worked on HDTV, shows her whole life.
[00:37:57] And I think she's made amazing things. It's a different world than what [00:38:00] I'm interested in, but she was a producer and, and she's, she always told me, she said, oh, it doesn't matter if it's the PA or the director. Like you. You, you be, be kind to every single person. Like you don't know if that PA's gonna be a director one day hiring you and that's been so true.
[00:38:16] Like I've met so many PAs early in my career who now are doing big commercials, who probably are hiring much bigger DPS than me, but those relationships are really important. And I think as a cinematographer, as a director, as any leader on set, it's like really important. If you have a minute and you just ask the PA, who's probably having a hard day who probably feels not seen, just say, Hey, how's it going?
[00:38:37] What are you interested in? What do you wanna do? How. And, and I remember as when I was PAing those little conversations, when a DP would come up to me and just talk to me about cameras, where it's so meaningful. So it's, I think we owe it to always do that. It's cheesy, but it's, I really strongly believe it.
[00:38:52] Cris: Yeah. I always also, when I'm having, when I'm having those conversations, cause I always love to reach back and give, because I was we're [00:39:00] I'm here because other people helped and reached a hand back you're here because of that. So you need to continue that tradition, but I always tell people, including will, who just asked you that question?
[00:39:10] When he was start I've known him since he was seven and it's really cool to see him yeah. Blossom into this. I was helping him with their first short. He had directed with his brother. That's so awesome. All of that's awesome. But what I've told both of 'em and almost anyone I've ever come into contact with that's like a PA or an intern or whatever.
[00:39:27] One of the first things I told 'em. Don't tell people you're a PA tell 'em what, what you wanna do. We know you're a PA we all started as a PA. Yeah. But if you're a writer and you wanna write, totally tell people you're a writer, you are, you're writing. Aren't you, it's so
[00:39:40] David: important. It's so important
[00:39:42] Cris: because how am I supposed to know how to help you?
[00:39:44] If I don't know where you wanna be? Cuz maybe I know someone you can talk to it's it's so important. It's that old adage that you hear. A lot of people say don't be an asshole.
[00:39:54] David: oh. And, and I think, but I think you're right, like that, that my, now I can speak to a lesson from my [00:40:00] dad. It, I remember there was a time after film school where.
[00:40:03] I used to do a lot of sound as well. I had like a deep love of sound design. So in school I would really, I, I would really do both. I would shoot, but I would also, I would mix a lot of projects and it came to a point where I was like, okay, I need to focus on just DP at this point. But it was hard because a lot of people saw me as a sound person.
[00:40:21] And my dad was like, you know, we're one important thing is when you, you know, he noticed, he was like, when you talk to people, you, you say, they say, what do you do? And I say, oh, I do a bit of sound. And I shoot a bit and I direct it a little bit, but yeah, I mostly shoot. And that's not an answer. If you're gonna get hired on a job, that's not what people wanna hear.
[00:40:38] They wanted say, okay, what do you say? I'm a cinematographer. I shoot things. I've been shooting things since I was six years old. And I'm a cinematographer. That like changed everything. Like as soon as I got that through my head it's and you start branding yourself as a soon grapher, then you start getting jobs.
[00:40:52] Cause people say, oh, my DP is not available. But I remember this guy a couple months ago, I met, he said, he's he seemed like a good guy, hit him up. [00:41:00] So I have so many AC friends and gaffer friends, PA friends who are like, oh, how do I do it? I can't transition. No one. They say, well, you keep saying you're an assistant or assistant camera person.
[00:41:09] You gotta say you're a DP. Yeah. It's really important. I know. Even if you don't believe it in yourself, you just gotta say it like fake
[00:41:16] Cris: first fan, your first person that needs to believe in you is you. Yeah, totally. And you gotta know where you wanna be and you gotta, you gotta just say that's what you are totally.
[00:41:25] But what that also helps is not just you, it helps the person you're telling. So if I'm on a set. Yeah. And I'm not, I'm a producer or whatever. And a PA tells me they wanna write and get into a writer's room. Yeah. Now I'm not. I don't work in TV narrative. So it's not necessarily that I have a contact with yeah.
[00:41:46] A writer's room, but I now know that's what that person was. So I don't know if you remember the PA we had in Texas, she was talking about Ruth, not Ruth. The other one. Um, Andrea. Oh, uh,
[00:41:56] David: yeah, I do. I totally remember. I, she was an amazing PA, so
[00:41:59] Cris: [00:42:00] Andrea's a writer and she moved shortly after that. They both moved to LA, to LA.
[00:42:05] Yeah. But Andrea's been working her way up. She got herself onto Superstore as a production secretary got in the union. Oh, wow. Like all of that stuff, but she's always wanted to be a writer. And I believe I had a conversation with her in Texas, too. I was just like, this is what you need to say. Don't tell people you're a PA don't just tell 'em.
[00:42:24] Yeah. That's what you wanna do, but EV I've I have, yeah, consistently I'll see someone going, looking for a writer's PA or a script coordinator. Right on Twitter and I'll send it to her. Yeah. And I've been doing that for years because I know where she wants to go. And she's like, I don't have the credits for that apply anyway.
[00:42:42] Apply anyway. Yeah. You don't know what they're looking for. Totally. And they say that to cut away from the people who don't have the bravery to just apply. Totally. But without her, without saying what she wants to do, I don't know how to help try to help her aside from
[00:42:57] David: everything. No, it's really good.
[00:42:59] It's really good [00:43:00] advice. Yeah. It's super important advice. I think
[00:43:02] Cris: when it comes to an anatomy of a scene, because that can be seen in different things, whether you're seeing it as a DP or an editor seeing it or a writer, but what have you learned? Anything that you can share with me? Yeah. As I embark
[00:43:13] David: on director.
[00:43:14] Yeah. I think with, with, we start speaking specifically to kind of camera work and working with the director and figuring out how you actually cover a scene. Right. Like we can go back to that pre production stage of, okay. We can have very thorough idea and conversations about what we think the blocking will be and how we think we'll cover that.
[00:43:32] But I've always really taken it with like a grain of salt. You, you do all that work and you have it, and it's always in your back pocket. But for me, and maybe this is because of the documentary experience, I've always really tried to arrive on set and you don't tell the actors too much about where you want them to be or what you want them to do.
[00:43:51] You know, you can kind of guide them a little bit, like as a DP, I'm in the corner and they're blocking a scene and they're trying it for the first time. And I'm just watching in the corner quietly. Seeing [00:44:00] in my mind, a billion, little things are going through my head. That's gonna a problem there. That might be a problem.
[00:44:05] There a, there it'd be better. If went to the window, there, there's all these things on a technical level that I'm thinking about, but I try and let them be free to start. And because all these amazing little things in the performance come out when the actor feels free. I think when a director goes, you're gonna start here and you're gonna walk over there.
[00:44:24] And then at this moment in the conversation, you're gonna walk to the kitchen. It feels a little stale. And that's what I think so much TV suffers from where it feels. False. Um, but if you can really incorporate the actors into the blocking and, and let them try things, that's an amazing thing that will add so much hard to your film.
[00:44:40] You think of films like blue Valentine or place beyond the Pines. Like I think Derek C in France is a director. Who's like a master of this where you watch the blocking and it just feels real. It feels like this is real life and the actors can move around. They aren't just landing on a mark and saying their lines and then walking over [00:45:00] to a table and saying their lines it's, it feels fluid and just like real life.
[00:45:04] And I'm always like, how do you, how do you get there? I've, it's just about letting the actors I'll go in and I'll say, oh, I love what you did there. Is there any way maybe for that moment, instead of going into this dark corner, With no depth, you could go do it by this beautiful win window with the sunlight pouring through.
[00:45:24] You can make those little tweaks and those little corrections and typically a good actor will say, absolutely. Is that gonna make me look better? And you say, absolutely. They say great. And with docs, I've always, I've learned that. And, and I try and light in a way that isn't too restrictive. I'm always saying there's three ways, right?
[00:45:40] I like from my windows, from outside, I light with my practicals, my lamps and my little things that I scatter through a room. And then I light with whatever I can hide on the ceiling. And I really, sometimes I have to do it. I try, you know, you have to bring a, a light in, on a stand and obstruct the space a bit, but I really try and keep the, the space open on a [00:46:00] 360 level so that I can move freely.
[00:46:02] The actor can move freely and maybe it'll look a little less pretty sometimes. But if it means that the blocking feels. More real than, wow. Like that's an amazing thing. So I've always appreciated directors who, when I watch their film, it has a sense of realness to it. Yeah. If you haven't seen Derek C front's work, you should.
[00:46:18] I think blue Valentine is like just a, a absolute masterpiece.
[00:46:22] Cris: I, I don't know if I ever watched it. I heard about it, but I never, I haven't checked it out. The big film. That was an inspiration for a lone girl when I was writing was beginners.
[00:46:33] David: Yeah. Yeah. Beginners is amazing.
[00:46:36] Cris: It's just an amazing film. And if you read the script, it's so close to what wound up on screen too.
[00:46:44] And
[00:46:44] David: Mike Mills. Cause yeah, I did behind the scenes for 20th century and, and I just, you could go on these bigger sets and you're expecting it to be crazy and complicated and like giant setups. And I walked on his set and I was like, oh, it feels like a film school short. [00:47:00] It was so casual. And the lighting was so simple.
[00:47:04] I was like, oh, you don't have to do all these crazy things to make it look good. Like you just have to think about good production design and basic lighting and good costing. And it just felt so simple. And I was just, he just treated things. So simply his little directing adjustments were not these grand speeches.
[00:47:21] You'd go in. He, oh, can you say it a little softer and just kind of amazing. You've expect these directors to be so eccentric that he was so simple and practical. Oh,
[00:47:30] Cris: that's, that's cool to hear. Yeah. I'm glad I asked you about yeah,
[00:47:33] David: really interesting. I, it was informative for me. Like, yeah. What
[00:47:36] Cris: was informative when I read is cuz I, I, you know, I love the film that the first one, I'm more of a fan of beginners than I, I, I think twentie century, women's a great film, but I just, I think he did something.
[00:47:46] David: No, but beginners is like a
[00:47:48] Cris: masterpiece, but it has that element of tapping into the character. For the transitional elements into the character's job. So Yu's, McGregor's job is as the graphic designer. Yeah. Which I love that running [00:48:00] joke of him trying to get them to, to do the Al the SADS album about the history of sadness.
[00:48:04] But that's what informed my choice to do that art project for Sam, with the cards and the story in a sentence that she does, because I was looking for a creative way to communicate the interior life of what was going on with her decision. And I, yeah, I didn't wanna do VO, which he does a little of in, in beginners know slack.
[00:48:26] It's brilliant. It just wasn't what I wanted to do, but I was trying to figure that out. And it was watching, realizing that he had connected the visual part of it. To Wan's just interior character. I was like, oh, maybe I can do something like that.
[00:48:42] David: No, it's beautiful. I think that's a wonderful quirky technique.
[00:48:45] Cris: Yeah. And it'll be really cool to capture in an interesting way visually too. Like I was like, this is also something that'll a hundred percent that a DP can have fun with me.
[00:48:54] David: Yeah. And you want those ideas for your creators where they can have these little things that they get excited about. That's
[00:48:59] Cris: awesome.[00:49:00]
[00:49:00] Do you have any, uh, advice for the listeners out there? Like anyone who might be you yeah. 10 years ago. Yeah.
[00:49:08] David: Yeah. I think the number one thing, it just keep going. It's, it's a really up and down industry and it's like very easy to get low on yourself. I think I, I feel bipolar sometimes working in this business because one day I'll feel like an absolute genius.
[00:49:23] And then I have a really hard day on set where I feel like a complete failure and. Keep pushing and keep trying and know that ultimately the right projects will find you. It's really hard. You're not gonna, not every single project you work on is gonna be brilliant. It's just so many things need to go right.
[00:49:38] For something to be special. And it's okay when things aren't going right. When I know it's not necessarily gonna be the best thing you keep, you wake up and you say, I'm still gonna try and make this as good as I possibly can. And, and I'm gonna do the best I can every day. And even though it might not be the best film, people are gonna remember that.
[00:49:55] And people are gonna say, OK, if you really push to make this project special, despite whatever [00:50:00] circumstances were going on and you can hopefully build the reputation of doing that, do the best job you can every day, no matter what project it is, whether it's a stupid mayonnaise commercial, or if it's the most beautiful, poetic, big budget film on earth, you gotta do the best work you can possibly.
[00:50:16] And when you feel like a failure, you gotta. You gotta reflect on what went wrong and you just gotta keep moving. It's I think there's many better cinematographers than me that I've met, but I think persistence is something that I at least am relatively good at of just saying, okay, that was a hard day.
[00:50:32] I'm gonna wake up today and I'm gonna still try and make this really beautiful. So I think that's an important skill for people in all, all areas of life, but in film, it's really important. And you, you need to build a reputation where people know you is no matter what the project is, he's gonna give it.
[00:50:47] She's gonna give it there all, you know,
[00:50:49] Cris: turning the tables. Do you have anything for me? And you don't have to, I'm super
[00:50:52] David: interested in you just because I've always known you as more of on the editing side and story side and producing side. And I think as a [00:51:00] director, I'm just like so excited to see what you're gonna do, but I think I'm just curious with what inspired you to make, try and make this film, you know?
[00:51:07] Well,
[00:51:08] Cris: so when I to take it back to the very beginning, like you, although my parents didn't take me to films, I went, my sister would, and, and then we. Video rental place opened up close enough for me to skateboard two and I joined and would come home with 10 movies and, and go watch the lake when I was a kid.
[00:51:27] And it was, it was a lot of people have heard this, whether they've listened to my podcast or, or just me in general, but close encounters was when I was eight in the theater was what, all of a sudden, visually I was like, someone made that for me to watch. And I wanna do that somehow. It wasn't about being the kid being abducted.
[00:51:48] It wasn't, it was just, and I recently watched it a few years ago. They rereleased it at the dome and it's still a brilliant film. It's still, it's amazing. Visually story [00:52:00] character. It's just, if you haven't seen that, it's one of Spielberg's best films. Hands down. Yeah, I agree. It's such a young age and it's just, when you realize that, you're just like, it's, it just brings more odd to me.
[00:52:14] Yeah. But so that's the, like the Genesis of me wanting to tell stories and I started writing from a very early age, started reading plays and all of that stuff. So when I moved to LA in nine in the nineties, I didn't go to film school. So my plan was write scripts and then try to become a director after selling scripts.
[00:52:32] Cuz I'd seen that like I'd read about that journey for a writer. Yeah. And I came actually with two TV scripts, I came with a Northern exposure in exfil. Cool. That I'd written cool. Yeah. That's so cool. A completely diametrically opposed shows, but that's where Chris's brain goes. And then I ended up on the journey I'm on.
[00:52:49] It was just, wasn't easy for. Me to get, you know, my script seen to get a rep or, and then I got injured. My knee got injured on a hallmark movie, which is really funny if you've read my script, [00:53:00] cuz it was a hallmark Christmas movie where my knee got hurt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I ended up and unscripted, which is no negative.
[00:53:06] I have learned so much more about storytelling, about connecting emotionally with people about a lot of what of me on set. It comes from years of that. I've written. Yeah. Yeah. With footage because in unscripted and in documentary, you're writing with the footage that the director and the DP come home with or that the producer comes home with the interviews.
[00:53:28] So it's all made me a much better storyteller around the time my mom passed away, which was in 2013, right after that, I also. There was a, I had a severe deficiency in vitamin D and a too much iron. So it like, all of a sudden I was depressed. I was which I've, you've met me. I'm pretty, I'm a pretty happy, pretty positive person, optimistic.
[00:53:53] It's just, it's in my nature. So I was like, what's going on? Yeah. And then those tests came back. Cause I was afraid my [00:54:00] mom, speaking of vulnerability, my, my mom was clinically depressed for much of her later life when I was in high school. As a matter of fact. Yeah. My last year of high school, it was like having a four year old at home.
[00:54:13] Cause they hadn't figured out what was going on with her. And it was hormonally. It was a hormonal, which they finally figured out. But anyway, that's an up and down thing. Right. So that's, I was, when that happened to me, I. Is it genetic? Am I getting something like, like I, I started a, in my late forties. And so when I found out it was just a vitamin D, which is not just, but it was so low that the dermatologist was like, I've never seen this.
[00:54:38] I've never seen someone so low that they are exhibiting depression. And he gave me these horse pills. so you have to, they're so high, it's such a high concentration of vitamin D that, that it's prescribed you can't just buy it. And so it got me back up and that, and I started feeling myself, but at that point I was like, what am I doing?
[00:54:57] cause I enjoy what I'm doing, but it's not what I moved here [00:55:00] to do. And I kinda sat with myself and I said, how do I achieve becoming a director? And I've always loved writer directors. Mm-hmm, , I've always loved the west Andersons and the Cohen brothers and yeah. And those stories and like the Artur. Yeah.
[00:55:16] Pronouncing. No, totally. So I told myself, okay, then you can only take a certain level of job because you've met me. I could run, I could show run if I wanted and unscripted. I choose not. Yeah, I do not wanna do that. Not in a million years. Yeah. Network. No. Right. I love coming home with something for a showrunner.
[00:55:39] And going here, you can edit this show because I don't just produce, I look at it from the, both the post and the directing standpoint too. Whenever. Yeah. And you're a storyteller. Yeah. So I told myself, just take any, don't take anything higher than senior supervising producer on a show so you can pay your rent.
[00:55:57] Yeah. And then I looked at it very strategically. [00:56:00] Yeah. I was like, I need to make shorts first, which I did. And then at a certain point it was actually. Or friend, bill who turned to me and goes, you know, you need to make a film now. like, you write a script. Like I was at that point, like I'd done my short stuff.
[00:56:14] And I'm like, oh, you're right. He was like, it's time. Yeah. I was like, oh, you're right. That is the, the next step. And so I was trying to figure out what to write. And it was actually him who I came into his office at some point. And I go, uh, he said something, I can't remember what he asked me. And I said, no, I'm done.
[00:56:28] I'm I don't need a relationship. I'm just, I'm done. I'm actually really happy where I'm at. And it was almost an unconscious thing for myself that I had finally come to that point. And that was important because I had driven myself to not being optimistic and not happy trying to fit into that box at some point in my thirties.
[00:56:49] Yeah. Which is that box that everyone thinks everyone should be in a relationship , especially for women. And that if we like being single, is there something wrong with us? Yeah. But so bill [00:57:00] laughed and he goes, that's a funny movie. And I go, what are you talking about? He goes a bunch of friends trying to set up their friend.
[00:57:04] Who's decided they wanna be. That was the first thing that came out and I was like, you know what? You're right. That is funny. But I need to think about it. And of course, every couple months he would be like, we're, you know, like, what are you doing? But I, my writing process yeah. Is, and I think you, I think I talked about this with Jack is I think about things and I think about things and I think about things and eventually there's a moment at which I'm like, oh, that clicks.
[00:57:27] And then my writing process for the first draft is usually pretty fast. That first draft of the long girl was a month.
[00:57:35] David: Yeah. You just need to, to soak it in.
[00:57:37] Cris: But also my father passed away between bill saying that and me writing it. And I love my parents. And I don't say that for anyone who feels sorry for me.
[00:57:46] And that was in 2018. It, yeah. What it was it informed how I wrote this story because consciously or subconsciously, we all feel pressure. Our parents to be in those relationships and to [00:58:00] whether parents are cognizant of it or not. And if your child doesn't want that, there's conflict there. Yeah. There's devaluing yourself for not fitting into those boxes that your family or society wants you to fit into.
[00:58:14] And it becomes toxic for every relationship that person has. Either. They stay in a relationship. They shouldn't be in because they think being single is scarier. You know, there's, there's a whole myriad of things, but so that's when I sat down. And then when I realized that I could address that, and then I was like, why don't I take the romcom and turn it on its head?
[00:58:36] And that's a challenge as a writer and a storyteller too, right? Because it hasn't really been done. It's been done very not often and not in this way, like private Benjamin, which I'm, I'm assuming Nancy Meyers had some hand in cuz she's credit is one of the writers. Most of them are male, but she was in there.
[00:58:54] She leaves. The man at the altar, but it's because he is an asshole and he cheated on her. I [00:59:00] didn't want that. I wanted this to be her decision. So anyway,
[00:59:04] David: that's how no it's good. And I think the best films come from a, a place deeply within ourselves. It's I think all the films that I've really come to love, um, working on our ones that had that deep, personal relationship with the director and the writer and the people involved.
[00:59:20] So it's, I think you're bound to make something good when it comes from a place I it's pretty cool. And it's so different and it is, it is that it's just, it's not just your normal romcom that has been written a billion times. Yeah. Is it okay to be single yeah. Can you be happy? I think it's such an interesting themes to explore things that I'm always thinking about.
[00:59:36] You know, it's, it's like we have this general tendency to be like, gotta be in a relationship. That's the key to happiness. And, and then sometimes when I'm on trips alone, I'm like, oh, maybe it's different here.
[00:59:48] Cris: It's it's interesting. Yeah. I mean, and my goal was, and, and hopefully I'll I'll achieve that. I, I think I've achieved it in the script.
[00:59:55] Now. I need to achieve it visually up there is that you, as an [01:00:00] audience member are cheering for her to say no, and yeah. That's like the Audi it'll hopefully surprise the audience member when they see that, you know, when they see themselves doing that. Yeah. Wait a minute. I'm not supposed to be cheering that, but I am because that's
[01:00:14] David: who she is.
[01:00:15] Yeah. And it's so different than the normal you're used to cheering for when they meet at the airport. Yeah. And you rushes and tells her not to go on the flight. Yeah. But maybe in this out, they actually don't chase. Yeah. It's
[01:00:25] Cris: cool. So, uh, that's, that's Bobby coming in on the fly here. Some attention come here
[01:00:31] David: me.
[01:00:33] Cris: Oh, so cute. So here's the, I call BS. It's a new thing. And you're only the second person. Okay. And so I'm gonna say a word, I'm gonna say some, it's not one word I've changed it in the conversation. Yeah, because you were talking about single camera versus multiple camera and yeah, I was very much considering shooting two camera because it's a comedy.
[01:00:52] And I do think, I think that's a reason. There's, there's a reason for reaction shots to be gotten with the [01:01:00] immediacy. But I, I wanna say, I call BS on two camera coverage. You tell me what your, your take is on and you can start with, I call BS so that I have, I call BS,
[01:01:09] David: I call BS on two camera coverage. No, I don't know if I do though.
[01:01:13] Okay. I think I, as a DP, I, obviously my priorities are in like visuals, but I do have to step back from that sometimes. And I have to put my priorities in. What's gonna make the best film, although two, like you're never make two camera coverage. Absolutely impossible to make it look as good as one camera coverage.
[01:01:33] That's I can say with certainty. because you can light in a way that's much more dynamic when on a very technical level where you don't have to worry about another cross coverage angle. I can put the lights here. Now, all of a sudden, if I bring two cameras in, I have to put the lights above or I have to hide them somewhere else.
[01:01:51] It's much more challenging, but as a DPI, if I'm gonna say, okay, there's comedy in this and these two actors are gonna riff on each other and we wanna [01:02:00] get those natural reactions, then ultimately I'm gonna say, yeah, if I trust this director, then I'm gonna say, yeah, let's do two cameras. Now, if, if it's two cameras for a purely, uh, economic reason, bullshit, screw that.
[01:02:14] But if there's a reason behind it, that's gonna help the story, then, then go for it. You know?
[01:02:19] Cris: Cool. No, that was, I was just wondering that cuz somebody, the editor I, um, interviewed Susan Linberg. She was like, we it's. We got into that discussion a little bit, cuz um, she talked about, that's an interesting take to get the reactions, but you can always get that in a single camera.
[01:02:34] What you can't get with the. The two cameras is, she was up from what I understand is the lighting and you just answered it. so the lighting are the they'll never get things I have
[01:02:43] David: to think about. Right. It's like a, yeah, it's a D P's nightmare to like specifically cross coverage is very difficult. Two camera on one side of the line where you're both filming the same character, not so challenging.
[01:02:57] Um, but cross coverage is really hard. It's really hard. My
[01:02:59] Cris: [01:03:00] inclination also comes from years of doing unscripted, where we do, and , I've got eight cameras, which is whatever, but I'm talking like, even in some of the doc stuff, I've had been able to have two camera so that we can get in docs, doc sense. The real reaction someone's getting from whatever is really going on.
[01:03:20] Yeah. And those are priceless in the edit room reaction shots. Yeah. That this decision was coming to me more. I know the value of a very natural reaction shot yeah. That you can't get. No, totally. And you can't duplicate with single camera, but now I'm like, I, I, I, after having that conversation in yours, I do wonder I'm like, am I thinking of a hybrid thing where I know there's certain things I need and then there's other ones where we can shape.
[01:03:45] I
[01:03:45] David: don't know. That's my feeling with it. Like with a lot of, when I do have discussions directors about certain scenes that maybe it's a really vulnerable scene and we, we don't want to do it a ton of times. I say, okay, let's have our two cameras in our package and we can be [01:04:00] mature and be like, you know what?
[01:04:01] This scene is not about the reaction shots. It's more about making this beautiful and poetic, and we'll just do single camera today. But we have that second camera in our back pocket on deli crime. I always, we had two cameras and, and it's also useful on a technical level where you can have one camera, that's your handheld camera.
[01:04:18] And one camera that's built out on a gimble or steady camera or your jib. So it makes that much quicker where you're doing those transitions, but then when you need. You need to do two camera coverage, you can do it. So I think having a second body is, is definitely important, but just having the maturity and the confidence and being able to talk to a producer in a very logical way and say, Hey, I know we have two cameras.
[01:04:39] I'm not gonna use it right now. I know that doesn't make you happy on a budget level, but here's why we're doing this and helping them to understand that. Cause as a producer, I get it here. You got two cameras. Why aren't you
[01:04:49] Cris: using, I mean, do you think there's some value to both cameras in you because you've read the script.
[01:04:54] There's a few scenes where it's over seven characters on a couch kind of thing. Like [01:05:00] yeah. I was thinking, would it be helpful to have a master wide and something else going on before we go in?
[01:05:05] David: Yeah, I, I think what I will say. Yeah, BEC like, just as me as a DP. On a very technical level. Like, I, I really try not to do wides and closeups at the same time.
[01:05:16] And that's because of the proximity issue that I have. Cause if I'm gonna do a wide and then I'm gonna do a closeup at the same time, that means my closeup has to be shot on an 85 or a hundred. Oh, okay. I got it. Yeah. You have this Teleo feel. Which for me, I struggle with that. Some people love telephoto and a lot of films look great with telephoto lens.
[01:05:35] There's been beautiful film shot that way, but I would say, okay, why don't I do a wide and. And a four shot or a three shot, which I can get away with. And then for all the closeup coverage, if you're doing two cameras, you're getting two closeups at the same time where you can actually put both those lenses in the 35 or 24 and, and be close.
[01:05:54] Cris: Awesome. Do you have anything that you wanna get the word out about?
[01:05:57] David: Yeah, I've been working, you know, nonstop [01:06:00] since the pandemic and it's right now, it's overwhelming in that, like, everything is finishing at the same time and I've been going through color, like create just nonstop color sessions. So, yeah, I've got some fun things I've gone in the night in theaters right now.
[01:06:13] And then my, my series that some really near and dear to my heart that I spent almost three years of my life making called deli crime, which we shot in India is coming out on Netflix in August. Got that. And. And yeah, we'll see what happens. Me and Lance have a lot of stuff up our sleeves, so that's coming up that way, but yeah, it's
[01:06:31] Cris: exciting time.
[01:06:32] That's awesome, David, and thank you so much for coming on this podcast. This has been awesome. Yeah, I
[01:06:37] David: know. It's just nice to talk to you again, honestly, it's
[01:06:40] Cris: long to you and to, um, get a little deeper into some of the, yeah, totally. The movie talk, I think. Totally. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for tuning into bliss.
[01:06:49] Spinster. If any of these conversations are resonating with you, please subscribe on apple podcast, Google podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find bliss will spinster on Instagram and Twitter and [01:07:00] through our website, bliss will spinster.com. Again, thanks so much for joining me on this journey and until next week go find your happy.