Meet Jack Perez! Jack is an Independent Film Writer/Director. He’s a member of both the DGA & the WGA and has over a dozen feature films under his belt including the indie genre hit Some Guy Who Kills People, La Cucaracha, which won best feature at the Austin Film Festival, and The Big Empty which won Best New Writer at the AFI Film Fest. Jack also teaches and is the head of the directing track at Academy of Art in San Francisco. Jack and I have known each other for over 20 years and it was super fun to catch up with him and share where I’m at with Alone Girl. Our conversation spanned things like not getting caught up in festival placement, how important it is to go into the principal photography phase of your film as prepared as you can as a director, and of course, that age-old question - is a blank page a scary dark hole of nothingness or an exciting open sea of adventure and possibility? Find out more about Jack on his website at: https://www.jackperezdirector.com Connect with Jack on Instagram at: https://instagram.com/whospuss
[00:00:00] Cris: Hi, and welcome to Blissful Spinster. This week's guest is writer director, Jack Perez, Jack lives in Portland, Oregon, and is a member of both the DGA and the WGA and has over a dozen feature films under his belt, including the indie genre hit some guy who kills people, LA, which won best feature film at the Austin film festival and the big empty which won the best new writer award at the AFI film Fest.
[00:00:22] Jack is also the head of the directing track at the academy of art in San Francisco. More importantly, he's one of my oldest friends and a mentor, and I'm super excited to share this conversation with you all. It's filled with nuggets about both writing and directing that are sure to be helpful reminders on your own journeys.
[00:00:41] So however you found this podcast, thank you for tuning in and please enjoy this week's episode. Hi Jack. How you doing? Hey
[00:00:48] Jack: Chris, how are you? It's been a long time. It has been a long time. I've completely lost track of the time. As I'm sure most people have. Yeah,
[00:00:56] Cris: yeah. Yeah. Um, the two, the last two years seem like, uh, a [00:01:00] couple decades.
[00:01:02] Jack: yeah. Well, for me it was even more extreme cuz we moved, you know, we lived oh, wow. Yeah. I didn't know that. Oh, so this is all new to you. I'm not, I'm not in California. We're not in California anymore. Oh, where'd you go? We went to Portland. Uh, that
[00:01:15] Cris: makes, that makes total sense actually does
[00:01:17] Jack: it? I don't know.
[00:01:18] I mean, I've lived in, I lived 30 years in Los Angeles, so moving up to Portland during the pandemic, uh, just made the whole thing even more surreal if that's possible. So, um, it's still a very big adjustment. Um, but we love it. It's just, it's, it's totally different. You know, as you can imagine
[00:01:38] Cris: to, to clue the listeners in you, you and I met many, many years ago, mm-hmm in, in another century,
[00:01:46] Jack: 1998 ish.
[00:01:49] Cris: Ish. It
[00:01:49] Jack: was seven. I believe probably seven was yeah. The year that we started production and stuff. Yeah. Mm-hmm yeah.
[00:01:54] Cris: And you saw me listing away as the [00:02:00] assistant to the legal person at this company I was at. Right. And it, I enjoyed it enough at the start cause I was learning, oh, what are these contracts?
[00:02:10] And what is this? But eventually I was like, why am I still here? Right. And it was because I can't remember her name. I wish I could. But, um, she was, she was pretty funny, but nobody liked her. Mm. Like, like the people she was negotiating with. I don't know if I ever told you this. No. The other reps, whether it was agents or managers or lawyers for whoever the actors were.
[00:02:32] Yeah. Would have their assistant call me to tell me to change things in there. Really. Because they to deal with her, it was wow. Pretty hilarious.
[00:02:44] Jack: Yeah. That's good. That's yeah,
[00:02:46] Cris: that was, you know, yeah. Meanwhile I've just arrived, you know, and it's one of my first,
[00:02:50] Jack: all of a sudden they're requesting you over the virtual.
[00:02:53] That's like,
[00:02:54] Cris: like, I, I, I have a master's in technical theater. I don't know if I'm the right
[00:02:59] Jack: person to talk [00:03:00] to it's all right. Ever most people in, in Hollywood are completely faking it entirely, you know? So that's all right. But I mean, like you were saying you a certain point, you ran up against a brick wall in terms of how, how interesting this yeah.
[00:03:13] Legal aspects of film production were, right? Yeah.
[00:03:16] Cris: Yeah. I mean, it served me over the years, like, cause I can understand, like when I get something I'm like, oh, okay, that's normal or that's whatever. But it wasn't
[00:03:24] Jack: actually, that's interesting cuz you do have yeah. Way, you know, cuz I think most of us are really at the mercy of our yeah.
[00:03:30] Attorneys when it comes to contracts and deal memos and all that stuff. And I think also because most creative people's brains are not wired to remotely. having have had the slightest interest or grasp of, of what a legal document. It just doesn't com doesn't compute. So yeah, the fact that you were actually able to get some of that experience is, you know, uh, helpful for Sur, for sure.
[00:03:53] Cris: Yeah. It was helpful. I mean, and, and I totally get it. I I've never, like, that's not mm-hmm I didn't study [00:04:00] business. I didn't study law. Like there was a very concerted effort to study something artistic in my background, but yep. It is a business. Right. And you know, the, the longer you're in it, the more you realize, oh, if I wanna be creative, I gotta know that stuff too.
[00:04:16] Cuz I'm gonna get screwed if I don't, you
[00:04:18] Jack: know, but you're right. I, I remember I once had a, it was almost like something out of a, you know, Damon Runion sort of moment where an old, an old TV director came up to me and I was, was when I was very young in my twenties and I was talking about mm-hmm the kinds of films that I preferred to make and, and he was like, it ain't show art kid.
[00:04:41] show business. I said Uhhuh. Yeah, no, I'm aware of that. I, I know. Yeah, but, but, uh, yeah, no, it's true. I mean, that's probably the greatest, all the, all the, I think all the pains that filmmakers working at all in Hollywood come from that [00:05:00] collision of, of those two, those two words show and business and, and they, they really, you know, it is like kind of like oil and water.
[00:05:08] It does, it has to work to a certain degree in many ways. It's a miracle that anything gets made not only just gets made that turns out to be, you know, successful aesthetically or creatively considering mm-hmm, how many business and political obstacles have to be negotiated, which has nothing to do with the creative process, which in and of itself is already like if you removed all the business.
[00:05:38] and politics out of the process of making film or any art you would, the creator would run up against enumerable, uh, obstacles, as you know, that could destroy the project at any given moment. When you add into that stew, all of this other shit, which has nothing to do with, with the creative process and still manage to [00:06:00] make something that is, um, beautiful or resonant or whatever, or even just effective, uh, is a miracle.
[00:06:08] I think I, I, I I'm, I'm, I'm astounded, you know, still astounded to this day, as long as I've been in it, that that good work is possible. Yeah. Considering, you know, what you're dealing with a lot of the time. Yeah. I
[00:06:20] Cris: think, um, and you know, now I'm in the middle mm-hmm of, of where you've probably been for years, cuz I, you know, I, I ended up going up as, you know, you know, a different kind of track than when you first met me.
[00:06:32] Mm-hmm , you know, which I think was born out of that injury. I had. The, you know, cuz you remember that I like injured for about nine months. I couldn't work. Yeah. Um, and then I wind up on this, you know, unscripted, you know, um, but it's all made me a better writer and a better creator actually, cuz of all of that experience.
[00:06:52] And I was directing out there whether they wanted to give me that credit or not mm-hmm as in unscripted, as you know, it's [00:07:00] it's it was non-union right. And they called you a producer. Right. Even when you were on the field and it's like, but I'm directing. Right. right. You know? Right. Like, but they don't want the DJA involved.
[00:07:12] So you're called the producer. That's
[00:07:14] Jack: right. It's easier.
[00:07:15] Cris: And I think that's changing now. I see that, you know, in the younger people and that's, I'm happy, you know, it's just, um, but I want to get my film made. Right. And of course, and yeah, there's all these. It's the hardest mountain you'll ever climb.
[00:07:31] Mm-hmm to get, to even get to the plateau where you're actually filming, you know? Nevermind.
[00:07:37] Jack: Yeah. Just getting, just getting there. Yeah, yeah. Into editing,
[00:07:41] Cris: nevermind into your festival, run and distribution or whatever it is, you know, like all of those, right. Like I, I liken it to with a lot of people is it's like, I'm trying to climb Mount Everest.
[00:07:53] Mm-hmm but you have to look at it in stages. Right. So you don't drive yourself nuts going let's look at that. [00:08:00] It's what's the next thing I need to do. No,
[00:08:02] Jack: absolutely. I think that's the, I think it's true. It's true of a lot of things, you know, I find like you get, when you get overwhelmed with even just how much shit you have to do in your house or whatever, it's like, you can't look at the whole mm-hmm, the whole thing.
[00:08:12] Otherwise you'll just, you'll be completely overwhelmed. I think. Even in the shooting of a movie, you know, when you get to that, finally get to that stage of, of filming. I, I very much, you know, even though I've thought about and, and designed and, you know, I'm one of those directors, as you know, tries to think about the whole thing before I make it.
[00:08:32] So that to me, it, it all becomes of one design. You know, I shoot mm-hmm according to a plan, not everybody does that, but in the preparation, you know, I'm looking at the whole thing. I want to know how one scene flows into the other. I wanna know how visually scenes interconnect and I'm modulating that as, you know, in many ways, directing, like being a conductor or an a arranger, you know, you're, you're arranging all these instruments and it should, it should, there should be a harmony.
[00:08:59] There should, it [00:09:00] should enter, lock in a certain way, uh, for it to have form and pace and all junk. And, but still what I was getting at is when you get down to shooting, all I think about is really the scene in front of me or the scenes for that day. I can't even begin to think about what's tomorrow or a week from now when I'm shooting it's as if the only thing that exists is the scene in front of me.
[00:09:25] And I think that's in almost like whatever scene you're making. My philosophy is kind of like, well, what if that's the whole movie? Like, what if the whole movie lives or dies on this scene? Well, then you're gonna like really mind that scene for everything it's got. You're not gonna say, well, this is a throwaway scene.
[00:09:43] Uh, tomorrow scene's much and more important. I think it's better to like, just drill down on what's in front of you and give you, give everything to that. And then it's done. That's why it's like one of my favorite directors, the great Sam fuller, um, you know, who [00:10:00] directed the big red one and, and, uh, shock corridor and was considered one of the greatest.
[00:10:05] Independent filmmakers, even though he worked in the studio system quite a bit, he was a kind of a wild man, but his, his whole thing is when he would say cut, like at the end of a, of a take his thing. And he had this very, I guess everybody I'm referring to as these gruff voices, but he would say, cut it, forget it.
[00:10:23] Meaning like, it's over, like, cut it, forget it. And you hear that. If you see anything behind the scenes, you're like, cut it, forget it. It's almost like to the actors and to himself, he's saying that's behind us now. Yeah. Like that's done, like, that's been banked now onto the next thing, which is another reason why I don't even like to look at dailies, which is something that directors get, you know, as you know yeah.
[00:10:47] Every night more or less, because if you're looking at dailies, then you're thinking about what you probably fucked up, or you're just gonna get bogged down in what has already happened, as opposed to [00:11:00] thinking about what you have to, what you have to do. so it's an interesting kind of philosophy that you have to, like all directors have to create their own, like how, you know, what's the best way to work.
[00:11:09] Cris: Yeah, it's interesting cuz um, I listen to a lot of, um, different pod. I, I love the podcast. like, there's so much information available to us now that ne wasn't necessarily to like, I didn't go to film school mm-hmm so I didn't necessarily have those voices in my head telling me what to read or what to watch or whatever.
[00:11:30] Right, right. And so it's kind of self thought that way. And, but podcasts, like, you know, you end up hearing an actor interviewed or a producer or whatever. Right. And it's funny cuz I'll, I'll listen to certain actors and somewhere like they always want to go see replay with this, with the disc shot and others are like, I don't wanna see it.
[00:11:49] Mm-hmm you know, and it's the same thing. You know, directors, some directors who wanna watch dailies, like I I'm like, you know, with my shorts, I don't think I watched any of my, I would. [00:12:00] Shoot and then bank it mm-hmm , you know, I didn't, I didn't go that night to look at
[00:12:04] Jack: it to see. Well, there was a natural, I mean, to that point, you know, prior to shooting in high definition where you've got presumably a high definition, monitor that on set, that shows you literally exactly what you are assuming a Lud has been applied or a general kinda Lu where you can get a real close sense to what the final image is going to look like if you're seeing it and you're approving those moments and saying, cut great, we got it.
[00:12:33] Then it's, you know, barring some technical disaster it's there. There's not gonna be any surprises you saw it. Whereas prior to that, you know, when, when we got together, you know, we were, I was still shooting 35 millimeter film. Yeah. Um, you know, monitors, video villages were much more, um, below fi and many times black and white and.
[00:12:57] So when you were, you know, even at a director at a [00:13:00] monitor, you were still kind of, it was still an abstraction mm-hmm you weren't seeing what the processed film was going to look like. So there was a, there's a certain magic and natural curiosity that a company's dailies prior to the digital age, because you really wanted to see what was gonna come out of this magical caldron of chemical lab.
[00:13:21] You're like, what, what is all this lighting and laboratory really gonna yield? Uh, what's it really gonna look like? So there was a, there was, I had more curiosity then, but still, I think I got hung up on what I perceived to be mistakes or missed opportunities. And then I was like, my mind was not on, on what was coming, which I thought was more important.
[00:13:42] So to, to that, to that point, there's an old rule, which I think, I can't remember if it. Attributed to Steven King or no, I think it was COA COA. One of the lessons I learned from him as a writer was maybe even told us to you. Yeah. Was don't reread what you wrote like yesterday. Like when you're sitting down to write [00:14:00] today, don't your, your instinct is gonna be like, well, let's look at these 20 pages that I wrote and I ands a natural curiosity, but I think when I do that, I just start to get bogged down and, oh, well, let me change that.
[00:14:11] And I don't like that. And maybe I don't wanna write this at all, as opposed to just putting that away and picking up where you left off, just so you can get through yeah. You know, get through the draft. Yeah. That first draft and then look at the whole thing and, and hate it. But at least you've gotten through yeah.
[00:14:28] The draft,
[00:14:29] Cris: you know? Yeah. I, I remember you telling me that a very long time ago and I think a couple other people might have said something like that to me, like I, I think in the mm-hmm , um, I think back to myself in the nineties and I know I was, uh, Pretty fearless about who I'd go up to and ask to, you know, like advice and whatever, which is yeah.
[00:14:46] What you're supposed to do when you're you in your twenties and whatever. No,
[00:14:49] Jack: I envy that. I've always been very, you know, timid about that. You know, I always feel very self-conscious so I mean, to be able to go up to somebody and say, Hey, you know, tell me what's what it's like, great. That's [00:15:00] an admirable quality
[00:15:02] Cris: But I think, I, I think I, what I do is I think I, I don't go back more than two pages, but I think I will go back to like, just a little bit before where I'm gonna go, just so I mm-hmm I can see where it is and if there's an issue, like if there's something, like, if I came up with something the night before or something mm-hmm I might go back and write in some, not the whole thing, but go, this is where this goes, and then I continue on because yeah, yeah.
[00:15:27] That, especially that first draft that. that's an accomplishment. And I think people don't give themselves enough of a pat on the
[00:15:35] Jack: back, but I completely agree with that, uh, that completing any writing process, particularly a script in and of itself is a huge accomplishment. You know, people don't give themselves enough credit.
[00:15:45] That is a, that's a mountain that is not everybody can climb mm-hmm and when you get through it regardless. What you think the worth of that first draft is? That's a, that's a big deal. Yeah. And you should be proud of yourself because that's not easy [00:16:00] to knock out a hundred, 120 page story. You know, that's the hard, in many ways, as so many people have said, that's the hardest part of the whole thing anyway, is just like coming up with the story as a chaplain said, yeah.
[00:16:13] It's like this coming up with the idea was the hardest part. Everything else was like easy comparative comparatively. So, um, yeah. And I still consider myself a director more than a writer. And so I still have much more respect for the people who practice that because I do think that's the hardest, that's the hardest aspect of the whole thing.
[00:16:33] Cris: Yeah. I mean that, it's that blank page, you know, mm-hmm and I, I don't know that I've ever, cuz I, you know, you always hear those stories. I'm afraid of that blank page. Mm-hmm I don't know that I've ever felt trepidation for blank page. I feel more like excitement. Like that's, it's it's wide open for you to.
[00:16:49] Put something down on, right. You know, like
[00:16:52] Jack: that's a, that's a, that's a classic. Well, you're an optimistic, you've always been a very optimistic class is half full kind of person. [00:17:00] So someone like yourself may look at the, the empty page or the blank page was empty, is already negative the blank page and see just boundless opportunity for, or for creativity.
[00:17:12] And somebody else may look at it and just see like a, you know, an abyss, you know, where, where do I begin and what, you know, I mean, I, I think for me, just, you know, my own thing is that I had never really felt entirely comfortable sitting down with no idea, just starting to type. I usually think about something for quite a while, so that I've got enough, like elements ju like kind of ricocheting around in my brain before I begin writing so that I.
[00:17:44] Bring this like bag of concepts to the table. So at least I have a, for me, I have a jumping off point, so I don't feel like I run out of road too quickly. Other people, you know, as you know, like outline things entirely. And in [00:18:00] those instances where I've been hired as a writer and as by studio, they demand that.
[00:18:04] So like, I mean, even though my preference is to kind of have a loose outline or no outline sometimes, but just have a lot of notes. Studios are like, no, I wanna see a beat sheet and I wanna see a full blown basically, you know, you're, they want to know every single thing that's gonna happen, maybe besides the dialogue itself.
[00:18:23] So there's very little surprising yourself in the process of writing it because you worked it out, uh, to a T and some, some scripts, I guess, benefit from that. Others maybe not. But,
[00:18:37] Cris: um, I do, I do the same thing. I mean that a lone girl was. I think the idea came to me in September of 2018 and I didn't start writing until the beginning of the next year.
[00:18:50] Right. So, because I was thinking about it, you know, and
[00:18:52] Jack: so it's germinating. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that's
[00:18:55] Cris: germ, but I consider that part of the writing process, it is writing the blank page [00:19:00] starts in your brain. That's right. And, but I also, and you're right. I mean, I've always been an optimist. I think of things as in the terms of it's an adventure, you know?
[00:19:07] Oh. But I that's probably because I grew up, didn't grow up, you know, in my own hometown, I grew up in another country. I grew up, you know, like I think it was just
[00:19:15] Jack: wired. Yeah. And your parents probably weren't neurotic, anxious, anxiety filled crazy. You know, like not that mine were entirely that, but, um, yeah.
[00:19:23] You know, it's definitely genetic and and, and environmental and, uh, yeah, I've always been, you know, um, I've always been attracted to people who have that sort of. Buoyant optimistic like yourself. Um, I need in many ways, like to surround myself with people who are like that, because I don't think inherently, you know, I, I have that, that capability.
[00:19:50] I'm always kind of like looking for the other shoe to drop kind of thing. And, and, um, um, so I always, again, I think that's like a quality that I really [00:20:00] admire in you. And, um, so I mean, as far as your movie though, I mean the writing process is effectively over. Yeah. Right. And you're on the you're on, you're on the cusp of, so the
[00:20:11] Cris: draft it's at it like a, I would say 28th draft.
[00:20:15] Geez. And I'd like to say that so that people know it's been worked on mm-hmm and it's been refined and I'm super proud of where it is. Mm-hmm and how strong it is. I think the draft you read was really early on. Hmm. It might have even been before I put it into the festival. Run. Right. So I think it was at like it's fifth draft.
[00:20:37] And so the fifth draft is what became the semi-finalist in three categories at the Austin film festival. Mm-hmm , which from hearing from them was pretty rare. I think there's a lot of scripts that make it to that level on two of the, cause they've got several different categories or whatever. Yeah. And I remember getting like the call that it didn't move [00:21:00] on to the finals in one of the three.
[00:21:02] And to note my optimism, the guy calling me was more upset that I hadn't moved on than I was mm-hmm . And I was like, well, first off, it's just amazing that it got to where it did, you know, it's the first competition I've ever entered. Sure. And secondly, it's their loss. It's not my loss. It's their loss for not seeing it, you know?
[00:21:23] And. You know, my script it's it's um, for those listeners who are coming in and don't know it's, it's a, it's an, um, coming a middle aged story wrapped in an unromantic comedy that does not end the way. Right. Every realm com's ever supposed to end. Right. I've turned it on its head. Right. So to expect right out of the gate for people to get it, you know, that would've been really optimistic of me.
[00:21:46] Jack: you know, I guess. Yeah. But you know what, actually, you bring up something that's very interesting. Um, another Adam will quality, which is just, well, I mean, you bring up a couple things. Number one is it's, it's very easy for us. And I was guilty of this when [00:22:00] I was a young filmmaker, um, to give a festival, no matter how prestigious and those people who run it, this sort of godlike appreciation in terms of them being able to determine what is good and what is not good.
[00:22:17] Mm-hmm, what moves on and what does not move on because ultimately these are just. With opinions, they may be educated. They may even be artists of themselves. They may have good taste, but it's still a body of people, simple people with opinions. And that there is there doesn't exist. Some magical, you know, tribunal of geniuses that can determine whether your thing is better or Des more deserved or less deserved than somebody else.
[00:22:43] But we want to believe we need this sort of app probation. So we kind of give it to these people. And you, I think it's important to ask yourself when you're submitting to any festival and say you don't get in cuz most cases you don't. I mean, I can't tell you how many festivals I haven't gotten into.
[00:22:57] And I mean, I've been lucky enough to get into a [00:23:00] few, uh, but many and when yeah, but many more turned down for inexplicably and there's, again, there's so much politicing, there's so much, uh, Personal agendas and all kinds of shit that you're not privy to. That has nothing to do, whether your movie's better than, or your script is better than anybody else.
[00:23:22] So, I mean, I always tell people, in fact, I was telling this to my niece who just started writing a novel and gave it to just a family member who, uh, she doesn't particularly respect mm-hmm who came back and started giving her notes that were ridiculous. And I said to her, and she got us, started getting upset.
[00:23:40] And I said, well, first of all, you know, I think it's important to realize that you should only take criticism from people whose opinions you respect. Yeah. You know what I mean? If you, you know, why are you gonna get upset by somebody you don't even like, you know, like, why do you want the approval of somebody who you don't even respect and knowing, having a certain sense, not a, not an [00:24:00] ego gigantic ego and saying, my shit doesn't stink.
[00:24:03] But knowing if, if you believe in this thing and you know, it's good and somebody goes, nah, it's not for us, rather than taking on that and going. Oh, maybe I'm not so good. And maybe they're right. And maybe I suck, which is totally human to suddenly go, well, maybe they're wrong. And actually to your point, maybe it's their loss.
[00:24:24] I remember when we did, I did this film, some guy who kills people and I had my sort of, one of my mentors in the business who passed away fairly recently, Stewart Cornfeld, who was at Brooks films for many years. He produced, um, the fly David CRO Brooks, the fly, and he produced the elephant man. He's the one that brought David Lynch to Mel Brooks, uh, to, to get him to direct the elephant man.
[00:24:47] And then for many, many years, he was, um, a. um, Ben Stiller is producing partner on all everything Dodge ball and everything you ever heard of, um, Tropic thunder and all those movies. But Stewart was an early supporter of, [00:25:00] of my work. He had seen the big empty, uh, he was one of the judges at the, I don't know, the AFI film festival or something.
[00:25:07] And that one, like the writing award, but it didn't win the directing award. And I got a call from him that was kind of like, he was. You know, Jack, I would've, you know, I think you should have been in there for the directing award, but I had to negotiate so that you guys could get the writing award, cuz they were kind of, they were friends, they were wanted this other guy and automatically I knew, oh I see it's a whole game there.
[00:25:29] Isn't yeah, there isn't like this like truthy going on about like it's all this like behind the scenes kinda stuff. And what happened was when I did some guy who kills people and I hadn't talked to Stewart in a long time and I wanted his, I just wanted him to see it because I respected him. I was like, I wanted him to see it.
[00:25:49] And I sent it to him and said, Hey man, you know, this is my new thing. You I'm curious. You know what your opinion, what your reaction is. And he was very, um, supportive and, and very generous [00:26:00] and loved it and said, let me help you get it distributed. Cuz it hadn't been found a distributor yet it was independently produced.
[00:26:06] Mm-hmm so anyway, here's where we get to the point. So he's like, you know, I'm friends with, uh, you know, the guys over at a CSCOPE you know, which oh wow. To me a CSCOPE was like, that's exactly where I want this film to be distributed, had the right imprimatur. And that, that CSCOPE presents, this movie would be like, yeah, awesome.
[00:26:25] Mm-hmm and so he took it in and he's friends with them and he said, I'm gonna bring it in and tell 'em it's great. And blah blah. So like a couple weeks later I, I called him up and said, Hey, do you ever hear back from a CSCOPE. And he said, uh, yeah, they, they passed. And I said, and I went immediately, even though I had already been in the business 20 years already, I was like, oh, why didn't they like my, you know, I made him into the, can you, what did, what did they say?
[00:26:48] Did they not? Like, what did you know? And I have a yes. You know, I, I believe in myself, I'm not like, oh gee, am I any good? I, I, but my reaction was like, oh, these skill didn't like him, what, what did they [00:27:00] say? And I always remember Stewart's reaction to that. He said, fuck em. They don't like it. It's their fucking loss.
[00:27:05] Fuck. 'em next. Like that was, they were his friends. He was like, they're stupid. They don't get it. Fuck it. Yeah. And it was kind of like, right. Yeah. Right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right. That's that's next, you know, like, like they don't want it. Okay. For whatever reason. Tough, too bad. They're lost.
[00:27:22] They don't get it. That's fine. No big deal. And I think. It points to a bigger issue, which is skin thickness and just overall personalities, the personality that survives, uh, in the business, I've been told more times than once more, more times than I can count, rather that I'm too sensitive for this business or I'm too take it too personally.
[00:27:49] Or, and that's just my, uh, personality. I just take things too per I think it's so much better if you're gonna be in show business [00:28:00] that you don't take it personally ever. You know, like it's, it's a, it's, it's the tall order, but it's like, there's so many nos and there's so many like that to like take it on each one of these things, these rejections, or these passes, or I didn't get into this festival for that to take that on is to just like.
[00:28:20] You know, destroy yourself, you know, cuz it isn't personal. Like what somebody passing on you is that's not generally is not a personal thing. Yeah, no,
[00:28:29] Cris: I mean, I was gonna say like what got us on, on this whole thing was, you know, I didn't enter Austin film festival or the, like I had a very strategic reason why I'd done that with my script and which festivals I did or thing competitions I did enter with it.
[00:28:48] It was strategic reason. I don't have a, I don't have a rep. And I'm like, mm-hmm if it performs well at some of these more prestigious competitions, it's like somebody saying this [00:29:00] is good. Right, right. And so I think that's kind of why I didn't necessarily take it as personally cuz I didn't. I was, I was, I was already going, I'm gonna make this film.
[00:29:11] Mm-hmm this is the film I've written for me to derive mm-hmm . and you've read it. It's it's very much me. Mm, totally. You it's very personal. Yes. And I don't think anyone else could direct, I mean, someone could direct it, but they're not
[00:29:24] Jack: gonna bring to it what you're gonna bring to it. That's
[00:29:27] Cris: right. What I'm gonna bring to it.
[00:29:28] Right. That's right. But it's taking me a while to get to this point. I, I, I was, I, I, I've got my sensitive, you know, sides and my go on my fields and, you know, um, but I think the older you get, I, you start to realize,
[00:29:43] Jack: fuck em. I wish I wish I had come to that sooner. I, I think that it's a difficult thing because I think in order, I think the irony, and I've always said, this is that to be any good.
[00:29:52] As in a creative person, you have to be very vulnerable. Emotionally. You have to be in touch. You have to be open and naked and [00:30:00] be willing, like to your point about like what you're gonna bring. If you're telling a, a story that comes from experience and you want to sometimes a very painful experience and you want to bring authenticity to that, and you wanna communicate that as a director, to your actors and everybody else in the department to specifically your cinematographer, to get the atmosphere and to get that authenticity, you have to tap into that shit.
[00:30:25] And, and so you have to have like the ability, not everybody does that and has that ability to be that vulnerable and to be any good. You have to be able, I think you need to be able to access that at the same time you're working within a business that is one of the most ruthless, ugly, um, insane, uh, brutal businesses on earth.
[00:30:47] And again, it's like show those things. Don't go together. Like it make, how can the most vulnerable people be expected to survive in an atmosphere? You know, where, where there be[00:31:00] dragons, every, you know, like everywhere. It's crazy. So finding a way to, I guess, compartmentalize those things and open up your vulnerabilities when it's necessary creatively and going, putting the shields up the blast shields up when you have to do everything else, I think is a, it takes a certain amount of time to, to acquire those skills.
[00:31:22] It's a learned skill. Yeah. It's a, it's a learn skill it take. And I don't even know if I've learned I've I've I probably still haven't learned it, uh, all that well, but I look at people who just sort of. these where these things would devastate me in information, like, you know, rejections and would devastate me.
[00:31:36] They're just like glancing blows. They just kinda like, you know, it's like, they just kind of skim, skim off of some of these friends of mine. I'm like, they're fine. And I'm like, fuck, how do you do that? Like, I, I want to be like that. So for someone who hasn't, you know, kind of gone through the ringer, you do, I mean, you have, I mean, you've got, you've been in, in this business for a long time.
[00:31:56] Um, maybe not in this exact capacity, but you've had enough experiences to [00:32:00]know, to know the climate or the atmosphere or the egos and all that, the politics of, of filmmaking. So I think you're in a great, you're in a great position to like now bring all of that experience into a, your first, really your biggest sort of creative endeavor.
[00:32:18] Cris: Yeah. You know, I mean, I'm excited. Like I, you were talking about vulnerability. I mean, I was, there were days I was petrified about the next scene I was writing mm-hmm because. As you learned in the script. I mean, my, you, you came from anxiety. I came from a dad who named me after his lover. I mean, like, like that's a whole other kind of craziness and crazy, you know?
[00:32:40] Totally. And to turn that into comedy was super liberating, but before getting to that moment of jumping off and learning, like going, oh, if I write it this way, you know, mm-hmm, , you know, like that's hilarious to me, you know, and now I gotta execute it. Right. I don't, I wouldn't have been able to write the [00:33:00] script when you met me.
[00:33:00] Mm-hmm I love that you can see the evolution
[00:33:03] Jack: in me. Right? Totally. No, totally
[00:33:05] Cris: big, big change. And that to me is the artist's journey right there. Right?
[00:33:11] Jack: Absolutely. I, I mean, yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, some people say that, uh, particularly with filmmakers, that the filmmaker makes the same movie over and over and over again, meaning it's, it's certain themes.
[00:33:29] Certain characters, certain things repeat mm-hmm film after film, after film, because they, they remain immediate and relevant sort of ideas about humanity or whatever that the filmmaker cannot get out of their system. It's like, it's just UN it's not a, it's not solved yet. So I'm gonna explore it again.
[00:33:48] I'm gonna explore it again at the same time, you know, you hope to like, like you said, evolve. And I think if you look back at what you, where you were at a certain point and you look at, even [00:34:00] if you look at your own tastes, you know, like what movies you liked at a certain age, and what, what movies, maybe something you saw when you were in your twenties, didn't resonate.
[00:34:10] Suddenly you see it as an older person. And you're like, wow, that. That means something to me now. So context and where you are in your life. And, um, that's not only gonna, that's not only gonna impact on your own taste about what you consume, but it's also gonna certainly influence what you make or what you choose to make.
[00:34:29] Yeah. So, I mean, all those cliches are true. Like all the shit that happens to you, particularly the, the, the traumatic stuff certainly is, um, uh, gives you ammunition, uh, or source for, uh, creative work, you know, cuz you have something to talk about, you know, you have something to, to uh, to express, but I forget who it was.
[00:34:52] I can't remember who, which filmmaker it was. Was it Triva or something? I mean French new way filmmaker who [00:35:00] said, well, well everybody outta film school was going immediately to make their first feature. He decided to like take like. Five years off and just like live life, just because he knew that he would not have a fucking thing to say in his first film until he had experienced something worth.
[00:35:19] I thought that, wow, talk about maturity. That's like an end foresight. Cuz I, you know, I couldn't wait to, you know, make my first feature. I couldn't, you know, I to say, to say, and a lot of filmmakers do burn out, you know, they're like, okay. I said it all. I mean, look at someone as great as Woody Allen, you know, who's first, you know, 20 movies are brilliant and then the next 30 movies are for the most part shit.
[00:35:44] And you're like, how could that happen? Well, you haven't grown an inch, you know, you don't have anything new to say you haven't, it's not, I media, it's not necessary. Like what you're doing. Like. So, you know, having something ne something that needs to come out is like a big, is a big part of it. Like, this is a story you [00:36:00] need to tell, or is this, you know, I was saying this to a student the other day, cuz he's, he's embarking like you on his first feature and he's he has anxieties and, and I was telling him, you know, you need to make this thing.
[00:36:12] that's gonna help you get it done. There's difference between needing to make something and just wanting to make something wanting is like, everybody wants something, but having this kind of crusaders need to get this out of your system. That's, there's a, there's the fine line there. And that does make the difference.
[00:36:29] In many cases of, of whether you make the actually end up making the thing, all kinds of things can get in the way. And you know, I'm not saying that he, if you only need it it'll happen, but it can be, can give you that edge. You steamroll, or maybe you don't steamroll, but you recover from obstacles faster.
[00:36:46] Yeah.
[00:36:46] Cris: I listened to the Roger deacons podcast that he was doing with his wife over the pandemic. It's called team deacons. And you would nerd
[00:36:53] Jack: at, I heard about it though. Yeah, yeah. You'd nerd out. Yeah. I.
[00:36:56] Cris: But he had a producer called John Khan mm-hmm who did do the [00:37:00] right thing. And he was a New York producer mm-hmm and he, he was so good that they brought him on a second, like there's two parts to his interview, but he said something that I had known in my younger years.
[00:37:11] And I was in the middle of a really, particularly difficult like moment in me trying to will my film into being mm-hmm you know, and I'm starting from knowing no one, like I'm cuz I, like I said, I wound up on a, a different track in entertainment. Right. Which has made me a better storyteller, but it means I don't have the kind of contacts mm-hmm that might help with making my film.
[00:37:35] So now I'm, I've written this thing and I'm like, I'm gonna make this film and now I gotta like, all right, now, how do I do this? I need to be 20. I need to channel 20 year old Chris again. Right. Hmm. But he said, you gotta let your obstacles guide you. Hmm. I was like, Oh, my God, that is something, one of my theater professors used to basically say in a little differently in scene shop, you know, because we'd get these, I.[00:38:00]
[00:38:00] Studying to be a technical director. And since some grandiose undergrad scene designer would come with this, you know, design for his set and the teacher, their, their professor was famous for saying, don't think about the budget, you know? And I'm like, oh, you gotta think about the budget. , you know, right. At some
[00:38:18] Jack: point, like stop teaching them that because
[00:38:22] Cris: because budget is actually a very, very good driver of creativity.
[00:38:27] Yeah. You know? Yeah. And I would take those designs and I'd look at them and I'd pour over them and I'd figure out how to put into fruition what their, their idea was. Within a budget. Right. You know, so yeah, I was in that, in that moment, I, cuz you were asking kind of the journey I'm on. I've been trying to find financing and mm-hmm and that is a wild west man.
[00:38:46] There is no mm-hmm mm-hmm rhyme, no reason. And, and deals mm-hmm come in and it might go and then they go away for the most random things. Mm-hmm , you know, mm-hmm mm-hmm and you're and you are on rollercoaster [00:39:00] and you do get in your fields and you're like, what is going on? Mm-hmm and you have to figure out how to wake up the next day.
[00:39:05] Cuz you go to bed destroyed. Like mm-hmm mm-hmm like how could I know that, you know why we had this one? Um, guy was gonna be a Bitcoin type. Deal because the guy didn't want the big, bad tax guy involved. Right. Right. Right. And basically we were coming up with a, with a model where we would have a shared wallet.
[00:39:25] I don't know how much you know about crypto, but not at all for the listens who do know they'll know what we're talking about, but there are now financial institutions that are, that will loan you money with Bitcoin as collateral. So that shared wallet would be collateral for us to get a loan, basically a bridge loan, right.
[00:39:42] For our, for our development funds. Mm-hmm . And we, I mean, I was nursing this for months. Mm-hmm we guys from up north and, um, couldn't be nicer, really wanted to help, but, um, it kept stalling between the lawyers, not on my lawyer and I get a call in February and he is like, [00:40:00] so what's been going on is my wife's divorcing me.
[00:40:03] And she's done. The Jo, the judge has frozen my assets and he has a studio and stuff up north, which you should know about. Cause you might wanna shoot there, but his Bitcoin, which he's been buying since I'm assuming he bought it at like double digits, like he's, mm-hmm , you know, like he was a really saw the, the future in it.
[00:40:23] Right. And that's part of his personal stuff. So frozen and I'm like all next, you know, but you go to bed one day going I'm crushed and you wake up the next. All right. How do I figure this out? Mm-hmm how do I, you know, again, I guess it probably does help that I've got a bit of an optimistic streak in me.
[00:40:41] Absolutely. But I also, I think I had a friend ask me, how, how are you gonna get it made? And I said, I'm gonna will it, I'm gonna will it into being yeah. That's you, the very first person to believe in. You has to be you mm-hmm is what I've learned over the years. Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure. You know, and I lost that for a while.
[00:40:57] You know, we weren't together for mm-hmm [00:41:00] for many, many years, but I think I got a little lost, but I think I needed to get a little lost and I needed to see that side of myself. Yeah. Um, to get myself reintroduced to the person that you met right. Sitting at that desk. Right. Going, I think, I think I'm the one who was like, can I be your assistant?
[00:41:17] it was two, three days later you came up and you're like, so like somebody came up and said, so you're Jack's assistant. Cause they're letting
[00:41:22] Jack: you have one. Well, I was very lucky. You were my first and only assistant. Oh really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I felt very spoiled, you know, to have an assistant. Well, it.
[00:41:33] Cris: It was a
[00:41:33] Jack: pleasure. Well, I mean, you've just turned out to be, you know, a great, such a great friend. So it just, you know, it wasn't, I never really, it wasn't like, yeah. But I know I never, I never really had an assistant after
[00:41:43] Cris: that. It that's interesting. I mean, what I loved about working with you and you said it at the beginning of this was, you were obstensibly my college on a set.
[00:41:52] Wow. Well, that's good for part, at least part of it. Right. You know, mm-hmm, sure. And I'd look at you, you, you, you [00:42:00] mapped everything out and we'd come to a set, like you'd do a location scout, you and Sean would talk, you know, and I'd get to be there to right. See that and you'd have your script and you had it all storyboarded and we'd get to set.
[00:42:12] And I think, I remember, I don't think it was on, but on the later stuff, that was more studio stuff. Yeah. Mm-hmm I do remember, like, I think we shot at a bar for the. Brady bunch for the Brady bunch. Yeah. And I think I remember an executive asking you if you got it all right. Because you, you shot very little there coverage.
[00:42:31] Right. But you already knew exactly how you were cutting the scene. Right. Right. So you weren't gonna waste film. I, I think we were still shooting film at the time. Yeah. We were
[00:42:40] Jack: shooting 30. Yeah. We were shooting film 35 then and, and, and time.
[00:42:45] Cris: Yeah. Yeah. And time and crew time. Mm-hmm and I don't know that we ever really went into overtime on your sets much.
[00:42:52] Hopefully not. So I hear stories now and I'm like, why are you wasting your crew's time?
[00:42:59] Jack: Well, like it, it [00:43:00] points, it points to how you approach directing. I mean, there's some people even, you know, as a teacher, I try to teach those two sort of like if you're gonna become a director, I think it's really important to get a handle on sort of the two bookends.
[00:43:17] Of filmmaking, you know, forget about the specifics of directing you're working within this medium and the sort of beginning and end, not truly the end, but the beginning is the camera. And the end more, at least pictorially is the edit. So to understand shots, just what shots mean and the difference between why a closeup, why a medium shot, why move the camera?
[00:43:41] Why not move the camera? Why from a low angle or a high angle and on and on and on compositional values. Why shoot something one way versus another? Why frame it dead center? Why shoot it off center? Why, you know, use negative space? Why blah, blah, like understanding like [00:44:00] those things, and then understanding how those pieces go together that, you know, in a film there's no, there's actually very little difference between the.
[00:44:10] Uh, putting a film together, shot by shot and putting a sentence together, word by word, or a musical composition note by note, each note, each shot, each word has value, but really it's all contextual. It's how those, those notes, words, images, interrelate, or interconnect and how they work together. Right.
[00:44:29] Mm-hmm um, so to not think about like the, you don't have to, you don't have to be, um, fascistic and say, it only goes together this way, but to not have a concept of how it might go together is not really, it's not as much filmmaking. What you're, that's, that's the kind of directing where I feel like you're just accumulating data, you know, you're accumulating moments, which is in and of itself.
[00:44:55] A very hard thing, like getting great performances, getting moments, [00:45:00] getting it from a, a million different angles, uh, because you're not exactly sure what's. Right is, I mean, I understand that to a certain degree, but then turning over this like basket of moments to a, you know, the mystical magical editor, that's gonna somehow turn it into a movie as I don't think really solid, strong filmmaking.
[00:45:20] And if you look at all the filmmakers that most of us really admire when you point to this Pantheon of directors, everybody from, you know, Stanley Kubrick to every Lawrence Scorsese at David lean, you know, there's no accident that like David lean started as an editor. There's no accident that Lawrence Scorsese was an editor, um, to have an editorial sensibility, you don't have to be an editor, but I mean, to, to know what that final process is of putting stuff together and why it works and what works, discovering that.
[00:45:53] It, it makes you a stronger filmmaker. So I brought that, and that just turns out that that ended up being super practical, particularly on low [00:46:00] budget movies, where you don't have the time to shoot it a million different ways. And if you want to, Finese the image and the performance boiling it down to saying, you know what?
[00:46:11] I think it's probably gonna be this shot, this shot, and this shot, that's how it's gonna go together. Then I can concentrate and do five or six takes of this medium shot rather than two takes of a medium shot, two takes of a closeup and two takes of a wide shot, and then figure out later which one I'm gonna use.
[00:46:29] You commit to that image, you, and then you get it right. And then you bank it and then it's over, you know, and that's, and in a way it's more of a tightrope because you're like, well, that's it, you know, that's, that's what it's going to be. But. I feel like that also gives your film a certain dis I think the films that are shot by design, and you can look at people who really subscribe to storyboarding from, you know, the Hitchcock is obviously the, probably the most famous, but if you look [00:47:00]at the Cohen brothers who, you know, notoriously score, storyboard all the way to something like parasite, where every single freaking shot of storyboard, there's a feeling of intention and design, which I think in most cases is a good thing in cinema.
[00:47:16] Yes. Do you discover things that on set, do you? I think my, my, my philosophy is that if you come in with a plan, then you're in a perfect position to pivot. Yeah. Or deviate from that plan. If you find something more exciting, but if you come in, like with nothing you're only ever going to reach a certain height.
[00:47:35] Of of performance of, of, of yourself as a director, I feel like you come in with a plan and then, you know, it's like, it's like studying for a test. It's like, well, you can come in and not study and just sort of hope you pass or think about how much better you feel, how much more confident you, if you feel going into a test as a student, when you've studied, you're like, you're still nervous, but you're like, yeah, I, I know this shit.
[00:47:57] Mm-hmm, , you know, like, like you're gonna be less [00:48:00] surprised and more likely not to be like a deer caught in headlight in the headlights when something happens, because you can fall back on wait a minute. Oh yeah. I thought about this. I, I think we can shoot it this way so, well,
[00:48:11] Cris: I also think it leaves you open to collaboration too.
[00:48:14] If you've got a plan, you know, how, you know, how and where you can deviate or when you should not correct or. When an obstacle hits you, you know what the outcome was supposed to be. Mm-hmm . So how do we reach that with this thing that's
[00:48:29] Jack: been presented? Correct. You knew what it was supposed to be, but I can't do it this way.
[00:48:33] So how do I this way? So how
[00:48:34] Cris: do I achieve that with
[00:48:36] Jack: what we have? How do I get that this other way? That's absolutely true. That's absolutely true.
[00:48:40] Cris: Right? And, and that becomes creativity
[00:48:42] Jack: in and of itself. Absolutely. I, I feel like, you know, there are some directors, some students I run into look, I mean, if you, and it's not about, and I've said this a million times, and I've talked millions of classes where I talk about the importance of pre conceptualizing and people are like, I don't know how to draw.
[00:48:57] And I hate drawing. It's like, look at anybody's [00:49:00] storyboards. Do you mean course a with storyboards for seven samurai are like scratches, like literally chicken scratches. Um, SC storyboards are notoriously childlike or mine. It's not about drawing. It's not it's it's about like setting down something that's conceptual in just the cruelest, the crudes.
[00:49:21] On paper. And then you're one step closer to actually what you're gonna do have to do anyway, which is to set up the shot. So people are like, I just like to find it, man. It's like, well, fuck. If you can like go out there and like find it all day long and make your day and like wind up with brilliance, then God love you.
[00:49:36] I wish I could do that, but I, I liken it more to like, you don't build a house and just start nailing boards together. you know, but no, a film is not a house. No,
[00:49:48] Cris: but I, I will tell it, like, I've always thought the script's B blueprint and you need to think of it as it's a, it's also a conversation once I've written, it it's a conversation that's being had with me, myself as a [00:50:00] director, but it's also a conversation you're having with the DP.
[00:50:02] Mm-hmm with the production designer, with everyone who has anything to do with that script. Mm-hmm and because it now becomes this collaborative blueprint for the movie you're building. Right.
[00:50:14] Jack: And it is like a house that way. That's right. And I also feel like, you know, how long it's taken, how many drafts you say you did of your script?
[00:50:20] 28? How many, how many, how much time have you spent writing this thing? Two and a half years. Yeah. How many, how many days will you spend ultimately making it? Uh, 22. All right. So you're gonna spend 22 days putting down something that you spent years laboring over. You know, I think it was Robert Klein, the comedian who said, you know, like a comedian, I mean, a writer will sit there and like all night, like losing sleep, going, should this be an and or an, or I don't.
[00:50:46] Uh, but you're gonna just, but you're just gonna blow through now, like, like the script, by the way, as you know, the script is not, I mean, in some cases it gets published, but the script is not meant is not the final thing. The, the script is something that you [00:51:00] now mm-hmm, make the thing from it's like, it doesn't, it doesn't stand alone.
[00:51:03] It's not meant to be the final result. So if you only got 22 days. To do something that you've been laboring over for years. Doesn't it behoove you as a director to give the shooting of this thing, at least some degree of, of thoughtfulness, as opposed to I'm just gonna get out there, man. And we're gonna, like, we're gonna wing it.
[00:51:25] It's like, well, you don't write the fucking thing that way you, you, you, how many drafts? 28 drafts. Okay. Well, you're not gonna have that time to do drafts of you. Don't you're not gonna have the budget to come back and reshoot half your movie likely you're gonna have to get it then mm-hmm and that's it.
[00:51:43] And you really just want to leave that to chance. I mean, after 30 years of directing, if you gave me a script now and said, Jack, in 20 minutes, I need you to direct it. Thankfully I have the processing [00:52:00] ability to now like to do that, but that's a lifetime's worth of training and I still wouldn't wanna do that.
[00:52:07] But I defy anybody to just kind of like go gimme that pages. And we'll like, we all we'll work it out because I think in the end, you're, you're just, this is laziness. It's like, well, you know, like it's a and more, more, so it's a waste, it's a waste of all that labor, all that labor and, and, and, and, uh, you know, it's like what it's like, it's like going through childbirth and then like leaving the baby at the curb.
[00:52:30] It's like, well, yeah, I hope he grows up. Okay. You know, I'm sure I'll be fine. You know? It's like, no, you gotta, you gotta care for that fucker.
[00:52:39] Cris: You know? Well, no, I mean, it is, that would be disrespectful to the time I put into crafting the script. Mm-hmm , but it would also be disrespectful for all. The collaborators I'm getting together for those 22 days.
[00:52:53] Mm-hmm because they're there to make sure you would hope that they're not just there for a paycheck that they're there [00:53:00] because I've collected them. Because at this level it's an independent film where I'm, this is my vision and we're making something special. Right. And you've brought them in to be part of that tribe to make this thing well, respect them too.
[00:53:11] Yeah. With your vision and be prepared. I would, you know, yeah. To me, the film's always really at its core is she's happy at the start of it. Right. Cause you see her skateboarding. Mm-hmm the very beginning. Although I don't know if you've read that. Cause I changed
[00:53:25] Jack: it a little bit. I don't know. I don't think, I mean, it's been a while since I've I've read it.
[00:53:28] Yeah. So, so
[00:53:30] Cris: I start, I, I basically have a bookend, um, opening frame and closing frame and she's gonna be skateboarding during the day at the open. So she's doing a morning skateboard and right. And you can tell she's really happy and she's just, she's it's just in the moment. And when you, when she gets in the house and all of the societal stuff starts coming down on her, that's when you start seeing it kinda weigh in on her.
[00:53:54] Right. Mm-hmm . And so the rest of the film is her coming back to that place of realizing she doesn't realize [00:54:00] she's already happy single. Hmm. Right. Right. So the journey is getting her to that place where she's like, wait a minute. I was happy. I am happy. What the fuck? Mm-hmm like, it's a society telling me that I'm not happy.
[00:54:13] Not me telling me I'm not happy. Right, right, right. Mm-hmm , which is the exact journey I went through. I mean, I think there was a moment in my mid thirties to kind of beginning forties where I was really making myself like depressed and unhappy because I mm-hmm, , wasn't living up to some concept concept, you know?
[00:54:32] And so that's where I need to get her. Right. Right. So I was thinking visually, wouldn't it be interesting if all of those beginning shots she center. Right. Mm-hmm mm-hmm and I think, I think I've settled on one of the very first things that happens when she gets in her house is she goes in the mirror and she plucks out the hairs on her chin, because that's what happens to us.
[00:54:56] Mm-hmm as, as young women in our forties and fifties. Right. [00:55:00] But all of a sudden it starts moving and the rest of the film until there's a moment later shifts, it there's negative space on either side of her she's in thinner. Right. And so then when she decides to quit her job, like when she's realized that like she's on that journey yeah.
[00:55:19] Of self realization, that, that she's, she's happy on her own. Like this is her happiness starts
[00:55:25] Jack: coming back to center. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's great. I mean, being, I think that's great. I think like, you know, one of the things that you always want to try to do, what you're doing here is find a way to equate or to draw a line between what's happening emotionally.
[00:55:43] to the characters or what's happening, uh, thematically in the story to a technique, to a visual technique like center framing or asymmetrical or framing or using negative space, a lot, a lot of mistakes that that filmmakers make is that you see a lot of very [00:56:00] cool stylistic choices, but you don't really understand why, why it's being applied.
[00:56:05] You just know that it looks cool. So you get a lot of, a lot of jumble of, of, of things that, that look for the moment. Interesting. But don't necessarily add up to anything emotionally, when you can find a way to. Support what's going on in the story, or even better with the character visually. Uh, and that doesn't necessarily even, just have to be, as you know, doesn't have to be exclusively the composition, although that's a huge part of it.
[00:56:31] Yeah. Uh, it can be everything from the wardrobe to the kind of color of the CLO the color and style of the clothes that she wears when she's more herself versus what she ends up wearing. Mm-hmm or to the, to the color pallet of the, the world that she's, you know, struggling against versus the color palette of the world that she's happy and all this things like to think about that.
[00:56:52] And again, that, that goes back to what we were saying before, when I go, how do you, you don't, you can't just like, come up with that shit on the day. Yeah. You know, like, you, you, [00:57:00]you, you, you, if you're gonna have, like, if you're gonna make these choices that are gonna come into this design, then for the departments to know yeah.
[00:57:10] And ahead of time, so you can just get the elements together. You have to like, have a plan. So, but I do think that that idea of symmetrical framing. Subtly imply that she's home or in a good spot and shifting to off center framing for when she's not comfortable. Uh, I think is like something that, yeah, and it's all degrees.
[00:57:31] I mean, you can like, you know, you can do crazy, you know, negative space stuff that you know, is like, you know, in many ways it's like, it's all, it's all, it's all degrees. How much do you want to do it? Maybe you start to subtly. Yeah. You know, depending on how quickly things change in her life. And again, you need to know as a, as an arranger that in this scene, she's quasi, but here she's really fucked up.
[00:57:55] So that's when we're gonna, like, you know, so that's all [00:58:00] super exciting, you know, cuz cuz then you're, you're really using the medium. You're using the camera, not as a recording device. Which I think is a real error. Like the camera is not a Walgreens surveillance, camera recording. What's going on. The camera is paintbrush and it can be as eloquent as any stroke master stroke.
[00:58:24] If you choose to use it that way, or it can just be this, you know, nothing recorder of stuff, you know, of what happened, what's happening in the script. So, um, It's always an, like you said, you know, if the page, if the blank page is an, is an opportunity, an endless opportun series of opportunities to be creative, then designing.
[00:58:45] Now, once the script is done, your visual translation of that script, and that's really what it is directing visually is a translation of that written word, cuz you're not gonna film the page of the script. Right? You gotta translate it into a [00:59:00] series of shots. That's also an enormous opportunity. Like, holy shit, this could be anything.
[00:59:05] What do I choose if to
[00:59:06] Cris: be? But to your point, like if I, if we were just coming up and going, oh, well let's just make it up. Whatever. And on day 15 is when we figure out wouldn't it be cool. Yeah. To do that shift. Right. We've screwed it up because there is an ensemble around her, but she is in every scene.
[00:59:29] You know, and right. If I don't have that plan, right, what did we do those first 15 days? And it's not gonna match
[00:59:35] Jack: well, here's the thing. I think that, and I don't, I don't recommend this at all, but because in most cases, everybody is shooting a high definition digitally now. Yeah. You know, when you're dealing with a, uh, you know, a 4k image or higher, the ability to recompose something, mm-hmm , that was a once that was once off center or centered into something else is possible [01:00:00]without really noticing.
[01:00:01] And, but I think the problem with, I mean, that can save you, like in a situation where all of a sudden you discover something amazing that could really that where you can't go back and reshoot. I think the problem with some, you know, it's like anything it's like, I love that ability. To be able to manipulate something, but I don't think that's a, that's a substitute for preparation.
[01:00:22] A lot of people would just say, well, didn't you shoot everything wide in eight K and then just carve it up into a million different shots in post. You know, you can do it that way. That's not accounting for lenses or perspective, or anything's that happen when you, or picking up the camera and moving it, how that changes the energy of a shot.
[01:00:38] But a lot of like really blame directors will rely upon the technology at the crutch to say, well, fuck, I didn't, I really needed a close up, but I got cowboy, but we'll just blow it up. And no one will know. And most cases they won't, but I do think that you can really feel a direct. I mean, I don't. Uh, what your personal taste is your favorite [01:01:00] director?
[01:01:00] The one that you really like made you wanna be a filmmaker is not that person. Mm-hmm , you know what I mean? Like the filmmakers that you really admire is not this person that just sort of figured it out in post. The, the, the one that inspired you is somebody who figured it out before , you know, I mean, I think it's funny, cuz like again, like if you get accustomed to, to, to this kind of design thought process, as far as shooting and cutting how your movie's gonna come together, preconceiving it?
[01:01:31] Um, no matter how crudely you may draw it or sketch it, but just getting into that head space, then when you get into a situation you can actually choose to let go of some of those things like a night now I like, I don't necessarily storyboard every single shot because it's so I can hold those things in my head.
[01:01:51] That are not like I storyboard the more complicated mm-hmm sequences or the ones that are really montage driven, where it's gonna be a lot of, [01:02:00] I know it's gonna be a lot of pieces to tell this story, um, or it's gonna be effect stuff where I'm gonna have to communicate very specifically, this shot is gonna be in effect or this piece of it is going to be in effect.
[01:02:10] And I have to communicate that to different department heads. I don't storyboard every single conversation because I can hold that in my, in my head and know what I'm gonna do when I get there without having to physically draw it, draw it. Or like in the case of Spielberg, who was like a hyper.
[01:02:26] Storyboarder mm-hmm, chose to rely upon his instincts when he did something like saving private Ryan for the most part, because he wanted that spontaneous choice to be part of the yeah. Pseudo documentary style of the movie, the combat cameraman's perspective. And he was, he at that point, he was, um, so, um, fluent and immediate, a visual storyteller that he could walk onto the set and go, yeah, camera should be here.
[01:02:56] Camera should be here. Camera should be here without, yeah. Really wasting any [01:03:00] time, the same way you would be as a documentarian. If you ran up to see it, if a building was on fire, you wouldn't be standing there going. Hmm. How am I gonna shoot this building on fire? Yeah. Let's have a discussion or I'll be 20 minutes and I'll come back with an idea.
[01:03:12] It's like, no, you're gonna say, go over there and get a thing on this. Yeah. And a shot of this. And, and so. But again, it starts with a discipline that I think in the end just makes for a better movie. And, and if there is an accidental and sure, like again, there are all kinds of amazing happy accidents, but considering how many, how few days you have to make a movie and the ridiculous imbalance in the sense that the shortest amount of time in any production is the shoot.
[01:03:41] like you spend way longer in post. You spend certainly way longer in pre and prep, writing it, finding the money, like it's an enormous imbalance. And then you get this wi teeny little, uh, window, and then you that's where you're gonna actually make the movie. Like, Valerie, my wife, again, who comes from theater was always like, amazed how, like, you guys don't even [01:04:00]rehearse.
[01:04:00] It's like, you guys are crazy. Like, you know, like you're not even gonna rehearse, like, I mean, people rehearse on the day, but it's not like theater where you're like, which makes sense. Like, Hey, we're gonna let let's. Yeah. Let's uh, spend a couple weeks rehearsing this so that we can like, hopefully when we shoot the scene, we've discovered a few things then and make it the best scene we can.
[01:04:19] It's like crazy in a way. Yeah. Because it's the most expensive part of the process. It makes sense that it would be the shortest. I mean, I
[01:04:27] Cris: was, I was talking to someone yesterday and I was like, I went to a screening of the big chill, the. Would that film get made today?
[01:04:35] Jack: Yeah. There's so many of the movies that are, that are like so essential, uh, to our lives and that would never be made today.
[01:04:43] And you know, when I look at these things and it's just like the world, I mean, when I see how the, what the world's become, and I believe me, I'm not like, you know, one of these, like there shouldn't be superhero movies, but it's kind of like, it's so shifted. It's so rad. It's so again, [01:05:00]imbalanced, you know, where it's like, yeah, they're making the Batman now they're making the Batman's seat.
[01:05:04] And it's like, yeah. Yeah. Okay. But it's like, Jesus, there's more to, to this. There's more to this medium, you know that there there's, there's so much more. Possible. And it's like, it's like, you're saying, well, I'm only gonna meet, I'm only ever gonna eat pizza. It's like, yeah, pizza's great. I love pizza. It might even be my favorite food.
[01:05:25] Do I only wanna eat pizza the rest of my life? No. You know? Um, and is it possible to have other foods be possibly even more gratifying in a different ways than pizza? Yeah. Like it's like, we're all in just we're on, on the pizza planet now, you know, that's where we live, you know? Yeah.
[01:05:44] Cris: I mean, it's not just that it's like, then you're trying to get your independent film made and you realize that the streamers are now grabbing all the actors and paying them ungodly amounts of money.
[01:05:54] And none of 'em wanna do the films that it might get the Mon Oscar nomination, because then, I [01:06:00] mean, look what, just one Koto won. It was 10 million mm-hmm , you know?
[01:06:06] Jack: Yeah. Well, I just think, you know, it's like, you know, I, I, it's a, it's a totally, you know, new, new world and I think that. It's like, but I think that we've all now gotten to the point where we actually have a lot of the tools in our hands and if we really need to make something, we'll find a way, you know, and I think that's the most hopeful part of it.
[01:06:30] It's going back to like optimism. It's like yourself out of like, you know, write yourself out of a low budget. But if you write something that you know, that you can like pretty much get it done. Yeah. You can get it done one way or the other one way or the other. Yeah. Would it be nice to have 10 million?
[01:06:46] Yeah. It would be nice to have a million. Yeah, absolutely. But even me, I'm thinking like this middle, my film, I wanna make me, yeah. It'd be great to have like three, three and a half. I could do it for that. That'd be like, I, I wouldn't be really good and I'm thinking, but maybe I'm only gonna get a million.[01:07:00]
[01:07:00] Can I do it for half? Can I do it for a couple hun two 50? You know, like I'm like, how could I do, you know, like finding a way to, uh, make it work. It is it over, over in general is the filmmaker's philosophy. I gotta find a way to make it work one way or the other. Um, so, um, I'm sure you're gonna find a way I'm super excited for you and, um, send me everything you got and then we'll keep talking.
[01:07:25] Okay. It's been
[01:07:26] Cris: so awesome. And thank you for your time. And this is, it's just great to hear your perspective too, cuz you know, you you've got so much knowledge. Ah, no, no, it's my pleasure. You know, and I'm just so appreciative that you're sharing it with me.
[01:07:39] Jack: Thanks for having me.
[01:07:41] Cris: thank you so much for tuning into BLIS spinster.
[01:07:43] If any of these conversations are resonating with you, please subscribe on apple podcast, Google podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can find bliss will spinster on Instagram and Twitter and through our website, bliss will spinster.com. Again, thanks so much for joining me on this journey and until next week go find [01:08:00] your happy.